Let's talk about minions...

[D'karr]

Just to bring another sort of minion rule into the discussion, what do people feel about the Mob template that was introduced in the DMG II? Essentially, you take a large group of mooks, turn them into one monster and they all die when they run out of that pooled hit points.

Is that a better way of dealing with mooks?

The issue with mobs is that they are much more dangerous than a single minion or even a group of minions. If you are surrounded by minions, not all of them are going to hit everytime they attack. So damage can still be minimal.

With some of the mobs the average damage can quickly escalate, they auto-hit and it takes a lot longer to take them out than a group of minions. So it is more difficult and challenging than fighting mooks.

Even though both minions and mobs are affected similarly by Area Effects, you can't effectively take out a mob without them. Which is one of the reasons minions can be more satisfying for melee combatants.

I think they are both good tools and I've used them both, for different purposes.

 

[Spatula]

There's a kobold "mob" creature in one of the early DDI Dragon articles.

 

[AllisterH]

You know, this may sound silly but this is in relation to the minion vs farmer angle.

Why do we still have the natural 20 rule in D&D?

If you get rid of this, then there's no way that a famer is taking out an epic level minion....

 

[EdPovi]

From what I've seen on the development of 4E, minions DID have a level based amount of HP consistent with the rest of the monsters. This was changed to make it easier for the DM to run, one of the biggest hallmarks of 4E.

It's VERY easy to houserule in standard HP for minions. Just like an Elite has 2x HP and a Solo has 5x HP, a minion has 1/4 HP. So if a Kobold has 28 HP, the Kolbold Minion has 7 HP. Your level 21 Legion Devil Minion would have about 50 HP, if you are fighting a "standard" Legion Devil he would have about 200 HP.

As with any game system, it is up to the DM to create situations that your players enjoy. If it seems silly to have a horde of titan minions, don't put them in the game.

The idea of creating a minion rule that's not as simple as "if you hit it, it dies" but still a lot less work than standard monsters is interesting. You can set a "Minion Threshold" (maybe 3 + 2/lvl). If a Minon takes damage => this value it dies, otherwise it becomes bloodied. A bloodied Minion that is hit dies. It probably wouldn't be too much extra work to keep track of bloodied minions.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

You know, this may sound silly but this is in relation to the minion vs farmer angle.

Why do we still have the natural 20 rule in D&D?

If you get rid of this, then there's no way that a famer is taking out an epic level minion....

You make a very interesting point. Given the newly balanced math, a PC rolling a 20 against a level-appropriate enemy should hit even without the natural-20-is-a-hit rule. So removing the rule would have little effect in practice but would indeed make it impossible for a level 1 farmer to hit a level 21 minion.

If you asked your question outside the context of this thread, I wonder how many people would essentially respond, "Well, even a farmer should have some chance of hitting a legion devil." I guess we want the farmer to have a chance of hitting but not of killing? So he at least can boast of getting in a good blow before his grisly death?

Put another way, the rule specifying that natural 20s seems unnecessary if you assume that the rules only cover level-appropriate conflicts.

 

[Henry]

It probably wouldn't be too much extra work to keep track of bloodied minions.

The question I keep coming back to in my mind is "Is it worth it?" If a minion has hit points, they can be wounded. If they can be wounded, they can be bloodied, slowed, dazed, blinded, poisoned, and a host of other status effects. Remember there are now very few spells (sleep being the only one I can think of) that merely give statuses; most damage as well as give a status. So, if 4e spells damage a minion, they kill it, and there's no need to track it.

So, you give the minion hit points, even though it's a small pool. Now, the fighter hits a minion for piddly damage, and slows him, causing a saving roll each round. Or the rogue hits the minions and blinds a few. The wizard frost-rays one and slows him. Now, you need to add die rolls for saves each round. You need to track who's blind and who's not. If it fits the sensibilities of the DM, then it's well and good, but it's worth taking all the repercussions into consideration when you make a given change.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

I saw a post once (Sorry I am ripping someone off here!) that proposed using minions for disorganized groups of weaklings, but using the Swarm rules for organized formation fighters.

 

[AllisterH]

You make a very interesting point. Given the newly balanced math, a PC rolling a 20 against a level-appropriate enemy should hit even without the natural-20-is-a-hit rule. So removing the rule would have little effect in practice but would indeed make it impossible for a level 1 farmer to hit a level 21 minion.

If you asked your question outside the context of this thread, I wonder how many people would essentially respond, "Well, even a farmer should have some chance of hitting a legion devil." I guess we want the farmer to have a chance of hitting but not of killing? So he at least can boast of getting in a good blow before his grisly death?

Put another way, the rule specifying that natural 20s seems unnecessary if you assume that the rules only cover level-appropriate conflicts.

Thanks.

Getting rid of the natural 20 rule seems to solve a LOT of the versimilitude (sp?) ssues and it doesn't affect the PCs versus the world so I'm not seeing any down

Hell, even in previous editions of D&D, I'm not sure the natural 20 rule makes any sense. Really, if you're only hitting on a 20, you're kind of screwed...

 

[EdPovi]

The question I keep coming back to in my mind is "Is it worth it?"

Very good question, in my view probably not. Those are valid points as the best feature of the minion rules is how easy it is for the DM to run. While minions are not immune to status effects (some powers give status effect on a miss) it is uncommon.

The 1/4 HP rule would probably give the best simulationist feel, but at the cost of more work on the DM, and slowing the game down. Even the "two-hit" minion adds the complexity of status effects as you said.

 

[wally]

Player: I poke the dragon in my eye to kill it. I roll unarmed, I hit! I kill it!
DM: Don't be ridiculous. The dragon is annoyed and attacks you. Take 10 damage.

This sort of comes under the same heading of "the heroes always arrive just in time, assuming they actually make an effort to arrive quickly and don't try to deliberately flaunt the intention of the system."

Also, why do you sign your posts? I can see who you are from your username on the left.

I didn't think the system said anywhere that the above was ridiculous. That would be the DM saying so, therefore it would flaunt the intention of the DM not the system.

I am not commenting on the good or bad DMs out there, I am commenting on the rule as written, which is what many (as it sounds to me) will follow.

I put my name at the bottom as it is typical of all the messages I send out.

-wally