Let's talk about minions...

[EdPovi]

And this is why minions don't work. When is a hit point not a hit point? When it belongs to a minion of course.

While you may feel the minion rules don't work, and you are not alone, many of us do feel the minion rule works, and works quite well.

The design of 4E is very different than the other versions. The lvl 21 Legion Devil minion is designed only with the concept of them being used as a group (around 4 per PC) against an appropriate lvl party. The designers gave no consideration of how a single Legion Devil minion fights a commoner. In fact, none of the monsters are designed for combat of any sort against another monster or NPC. These monsters are challenges for the PCs and only for the PC, any other use is for plot device only. Some of the monsters can be player races in some cases, but then they would be PCs not monsters.

A party, or even a single PC, should never encounter a single minion all by himself. It would be "bad" encounter design according to the game. Now, a DM may create a cool encounter based on a lone minion, but that would be the DM's story doing the work, not the game mechanics.

According to the game design, if the party is to encounter a single opponent, it should be a "solo" type monster, not a minion.

 

[Dausuul]

It's terrible. I hated swarms from the moment they were introduced, knowing that people would apply them to weak people like creatures to create mobs.

Of all the suspension of disbelief issues with minions, magic voltron peasants that combine to fight like a single really tough monster have to be worse.

However, mob rules are perfect for ninjas.

 

[AllisterH]

Um, since only one person commented about it, and we're STILL talking about Peasant vs Legion Devil, isn't the OBVIOUS solution NOT to mess with the Minion rule but the autohit of the d20?

If for example, we eliminate that rule, it means that the level 21 Legion Devil legionnaire minion could simply ignore the peasant. Hell, assuming that no peasant has a STR score above 12, no peasant could eliminate even a level 6 legion devil grunt minion.

SERIOUSLY, why not get rid of the auto-hit nature of the d20?

 

[Henry]

Um, since only one person commented about it, and we're STILL talking about Peasant vs Legion Devil, isn't the OBVIOUS solution NOT to mess with the Minion rule but the autohit of the d20?

If for example, we eliminate that rule, it means that the level 21 Legion Devil legionnaire minion could simply ignore the peasant. Hell, assuming that no peasant has a STR score above 12, no peasant could eliminate even a level 6 legion devil grunt minion.

SERIOUSLY, why not get rid of the auto-hit nature of the d20?

Because the auto-hit nature of the d20 is a rule that DIRECTLY impacts game play; giving players that chance to beat the odds is part of the fun for a game experience. However, minion vs. farmer is a game situation that almost NEVER occurs without PCs around to witness it; if PCs are there, you can assume the farmer is screwed, and he's not attacking a Hell-fiend, much less effectively - he's running, and he's begging for help from the PCs.

Even discounting the fact that the Hell-fiend is likely going to win initiative, and the farmer is likely going to miss even if he wins, and the devil is likely going to hit, you have a situation that matters as much as detailed info on an NPC that the PCs would never see. You also would almost never have PCs fighting a single minion, especially if he's higher level. There was a statement in the WotC minions preview that went (paraphrased) "The purpose of minions isn't so that level 1 PCs can get a lucky shot on a level 16 minion and net 1,000 XP." If you're facing a single minion, it's because he's a plot point and has some info to impart (either through interrogation or rifling through his corpse's pockets). Otherwise, there aren't any farmers out there facing down minions out of sight of the PCs, just like there weren't halfling commoners getting killed by house cats.

 

[AllisterH]

Because the auto-hit nature of the d20 is a rule that DIRECTLY impacts game play; giving players that chance to beat the odds is part of the fun for a game experience.
.

EXCEPT for one point. It DOESNT affect gameplay.

Is there EVER a scenario where the PCs fight an enemy and can only hit it with a natural 20 and is NOT a TPK situation.

Going all the way back to 2E, this doesn't make any sense. I can understand it in 1e where you had those wandering monster tables with wildly different monsters.

But by 2e, if the scenario was one where the PCs could only hit on a 20, how isn't that a TPK situation?

 

[D'karr]

EXCEPT for one point. It DOESNT affect gameplay.

Is there EVER a scenario where the PCs fight an enemy and can only hit it with a natural 20 and is NOT a TPK situation.

Going all the way back to 2E, this doesn't make any sense. I can understand it in 1e where you had those wandering monster tables with wildly different monsters.

But by 2e, if the scenario was one where the PCs could only hit on a 20, how isn't that a TPK situation?

It does and it can easily affect gameplay.

As long as not all the PCs have to hit on a Nat 20, it is perfectly okay to use that scenario.

The farmer vs. the Legion Devil, on the other hand, is definitely a scenario that would probably never happen unless the DM wanted to use it as a plot device. And in that case, why would the DM even need to be rolling dice?

 

[Victim]

An "attack" and "damage" are abstract. If you don't want to picture peasants grouping together to make a single, powerful attack, don't. That's not what it's intended to represent anyway. Imagine it differently.

I can imagine the attack and damage from the gang beating in most cases without too much trouble.

My problem is that abilities that tend to be effective against groups of enemies tend to not be effective against mobs. A multitarget power like Cleave or Passing Attack just doesn't work right. To use a 3.x example, a small amount of DR is most useful for protecting against the attacks of numerous, individually weak attackers. Turning those groups of individual guys into 1 big mob defeats the whole point of many of that ability, and many others.

 

[AllisterH]

It does and it can easily affect gameplay.

As long as not all the PCs have to hit on a Nat 20, it is perfectly okay to use that scenario.

?

Ok, please name me a scenario then.

 

[D'karr]

Ok, please name me a scenario then.

Black Dragon Solo in Scalegloom Hall.

 

[D'karr]

Can you name a scenario where the Farmer vs. Legion Devil is not a plot device?