Let's talk about "plot", "story", and "play to find out."

[Fenris-77]

So what I'm hearing is that if you don't enjoy RPGs the same way you do, then you shouldn't be playing your RPG, or possibly any RPG?

I think you're hearing things. No one is interested in your ongoing defense of your particular tastes in RPGs. You're looking for offense, and, surprise, you find some. Sigh.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Please name the RPG that aligns the decision process of player and character, does not abstact the game world, and allows one to make play decisions without regard to the mechanics.

It's obviously a matter of degree, and then personal taste. Expecting those things not to exist at all is not realistic, but it doesn't have to go as far as some games take it. Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good IMO.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think you're hearing things. No one is interested in your ongoing defense of your particular tastes in RPGs. You're looking for offense, and, surprise, you find some. Sigh.

I think you're letting the fact you largely agree with @hawkeyefan to color your opinion of those who don't. We're all allowed to express our feelings here.

 

[Fenris-77]

I think you're letting the fact you largely agree with @hawkeyefan to color your opinion of those who don't. We're all allowed to express our feelings here.

No, I'm not, but your suggestion that I am fits perfectly with the rest of the participation here. You don't even like play to find out games, yet here you are shouting about how this and that break your immersion or don't match your tastes. Whatever man. We're talking about the games and how they work and you're talking about ... well, something else.

I'd love to hear you opinion of how the various elements of play to find out type games relate to the idea of story, if you ever decide to post abotu the actual thread topic.

 

[hawkeyefan]

It is about whether the decision process of the player and character are aligned. More abstracted, disassociated, mechanics create divergence in the decision spaces, and if these mechanics are also complex, then the gameplay becomes more about gaming the mechanics than about the fiction. Which is not even necessarily always a bad thing, more a matter of taste, but it is pretty much opposite of "fiction first."

Yes, I understand your stance. I don’t agree with it at all. I fee like you choose to find conflict where I don’t think such conflict exists. You seem to not want to engage with the rules of the game… that somehow doing so disturbs your enjoyment of the game.

It leaves me wondering how you enjoy RPGs at all.

So what I'm hearing is that if you don't enjoy RPGs the same way you do, then you shouldn't be playing your RPG, or possibly any RPG?

My point is that if rules of a game disturb your enjoyment of the game, then I’m not sure why you’d choose to play that game.

Let’s say someone complained that they didn’t like to roll funny looking dice. Are you gonna recommend to them to try D&D?

I fee like the rejection of game mechanics being put forth is as fundamentally incompatible with RPG play as an aversion to dice would be.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, I understand your stance. I don’t agree with it at all. I fee like you choose to find conflict where I don’t think such conflict exists. You seem to not want to engage with the rules of the game… that somehow doing so disturbs your enjoyment of the game.

It leaves me wondering how you enjoy RPGs at all.



My point is that if rules of a game disturb your enjoyment of the game, then I’m not sure why you’d choose to play that game.

Let’s say someone complained that they didn’t like to roll funny looking dice. Are you gonna recommend to them to try D&D?

I fee like the rejection of game mechanics being put forth is as fundamentally incompatible with RPG play as an aversion to dice would be.

So...yes? That stance seems rather judgemental, and indeed disparaging to those who don't share your preferences.

I see no value in further engagement with you.

 

[hawkeyefan]

So...yes? That stance seems rather judgemental, and indeed disparaging to those who don't share your preferences.

I see no value in further engagement with you.

It’s not a judgment. It’s an expression of bewilderment.

But sure… find offense in it and complain about that perceived offense when we’re talking about games you don’t even like.

 

[Fenris-77]

A game that might bring some interesting discussion here is His Majesty the Worm. It's very specifically a mythic underworld dungeon crawling game, with all the resource management that entails, but it also has a lot of more story related elements both in its use of the tarot deck as the core randomizing tool and in some of the character mechanics.

 

[Nytmare]

I think the issue might arise because these games ask the GM to invent consequences so often that it might become difficult for GM to make up something interesting constantly, so it is easy to just default to ticking "alarm will be raised" clock or some such. And this of course is a skill issue, and some GM's will be way better at this than others and will have no problems with coming up with cool consequences. But I think design-wise the designer should carefully consider how often the system prompts the GM to come up with such stuff, as I feel rarer, but more impactful consequences is better than frequent but boring ones.

One thing I often like to suggest to people who... I don't know feel daunted by the prospect of having to invent a bunch of stuff on the fly to run games like that, is that they're not going into those situations with a blank page and an empty tank.

Consequences arise naturally from the story that has been unfurling around you as you play the game. People have enemies, characters have fears, narrative beats have been established. The story is providing a wealth of prompts, you're not just inventing something blindly from whole cloth. You know that there are guards. You know that the BBEG was expecting them. You know that the paladin's missing brother was involved with smugglers.

If you're watching a movie for the first time, even though you don't KNOW what's going to happen next, your brain is still spinning around in the background with ideas about what MIGHT happen. Mechanics like this are tapping into that part of your brain. If you're playing a game, and your brain (and the players) aren't immediately suggesting things that might go wrong with a situation, chances are that this isn't a point where people should be rolling dice to see what happens next.

 

[Fenris-77]

So HmtW doesn't use HP it has something more like damage levels - stressed (like a freebie), talents get damaged and you lose access to them until healed, and then you have injured and then dead (basically). There is also a mechanic called resolve which is essentially like a lot of luck mechanics, you burn a point of resolve to add to a critical test.

Here's where the rules get very different - there are no healing rules. Just going to sleep doesn't do a damn thing. If you want to heal and recover resolve you need to look to your Bonds. Each PC has a bond that describes something about their relationship with each other PC, some good, some not, and in a format that will be familiar to players of PbtA and other games with bonds - things like I must protect X, or Y cannot be trusted and must be watched, and so on.

In play whenever you do a nice bit of roleplaying based on a bond the GM will tell you that bond is now 'charged'. So to fully charge your bonds you need to engage with all the members of the party in whatever way you mutually decided was the key facet of the various relationships. In the camp phase you may then spend these charged bonds to heal and to recover resolve. So healing is directly dependent on roleplaying your relationship with the other PCs. Those bonds will also change as the various PC relationships change. I think it's bloody brilliant.

Here's what the rule book has to say about these bonds:
The most essential stats on your adventurer sheet aren't your talents or motifs. The most essential stats are your Bonds with your guild-mates.

The economy of charging Bonds during the Crawl and spending them during the Camp Phase is essential to the flow of His Majesty the Worm. As such, make sure you're thinking of ways to engage other players.

• Play to lift other adventurers up. When you see an opportunity for another adventurer to shine, take a step back. Share each other's burdens. Revel in each other's successes.
• Be respectful and considerate. If you want to explore a particular story, engage with your fellow players to make sure they're comfortable with the themes that you're exploring. Don't be “that guy.” Read the goddamn room.
• Let your relationships grow and change. Every session or two, touch base with another player. Discuss how your adventurers feel about each other in light of your most recent experiences. Have rivals become allies?
Have allies become best friends? Have best friends become lovers?
• Be funny in character. Be serious in character. Think in character. Stay in character.