Let's talk about "plot", "story", and "play to find out."

When we play Blades in the Dark, through each moment of conversation about the world we are telling the story ("playing to find out") of "will these scoundrels rise above the grasping hands ready to pull them down and achieve success, or will their vices and struggles grind them down and out." There's rarely intentional "act" structure, but most Scores are going to play out in a manner that quite often resembles episodes of media. When you hit an obvious conclusion that generally starts to become apparent through the course of play ("ok, we keep messing with the Red Sashes, and we're getting awfully close to war - we're going to have to Do Something About that or they'll knife us"), often an "arc" of play has a natural culminating point. You see if you answer the question of the premise of play there, and if there's more for those characters to say.

The game's premise + mechanics (vice, trauma, harm, heat, faction status, etc) + playbooks (PC and crew) all come together to fairly naturally create a story along certain themes the game invites you to invest in.

It's intentional design that gets a consistent result.
 

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I do what the particular group wants.

This group in session zero thirteen years ago now expressed very strong desires for linear play with a strong narrative hooks and not for open ended play where they create the fun, probably because the few then experienced players had had bad experiences with GMs who made things up on the fly or left them in empty sandboxes expecting them to create play and story out of nothing.

But if I had a group of thespians that wanted more open play or if I was running for just one or two players, I'd probably have more open player and character driven plots.
 

The example wasn't about the GM deciding a Thing must Happen. It was about a player deciding A Thing Must Happen, which is an act of agency but it trades later agency not just once, but continuously until The Thing Happens.
By way of example, let's say you want to play The Princess Bride as an adventure. If you are playing Indigo, backstory is saying you will hunt down the 6 Fingered Man to get revenge, and the GM promises to include the 6 Fingered Man for you. Great! But if the player says, "And I have to have a duel with him where I almost lose but eventually my resolve wins out" that is pre-writing a thing that should happen naturally in play.
There are two things here.

The first is if the player wants to duel and almost get beat, but eventually overcomes them, and everyone else at the table is cool for that, then that doesn't mean you can't either or both a) spin a great yarn about how you get to that point (which will make that duel all the more epic and meaningful as the depth of character that got built along the way) and b) it can still leave plenty open for interpretation at the end of how it turns out -- how does the character almost lose? What is the driving force behind their resolve? What do they tie it too? What realization? What friend or ally?

A game like FATE or Cortex Prime also can support this kind of thing, where a player can invoke Aspects/Distinctions to hinder themselves (not that anyone in any RPG can't also choose to simply fail or roll without their bonuses) and get metacurrency they can use to aid in their eventual victory.

The second however, which I'm getting the sense is what you're trying to posit as a major part of your premise, if you have a someone dictating, browbeating, or forcing events over the desires and enjoyment of others, then not only is whether it is a player or the GM not relevant, neither is anything about plot, story, play to find out, or any of the terms in the opening question. Nor game mechanics (or game, this would apply to baseball as well). This is a social issue of a person being a bully. That's what it is. There is no need to bring stories or storytelling into it at all.

Story does not only mean "finished manuscript." And "telling a story" doesn't only mean recounting something already created. Richard Adams told the story of Watership Down to his young daughters during long drives. Not from memory (he hadn't written it yet!). Not from a grand plan. Not from thinking about it first. But improvised as he went along. Spinning a yarn. Telling a story, with nuanced characters and exploration and theme and adventure and allegory and more.

RPGs are different than this in that we have die rolls and other things to shake things up, and we're also creating it collaboratively. It is still storytelling. Not everyone or every game or every table will tell the same kind of story, nor have the same focus, and there'll be different balances between the focus on the story and the focus on the combat/puzzles/challenges. Some will be full on plot with little meaning. Others will work to bring forth rich characters and dramas. They're all still people playing RPGs and having a good time.
 

Let me restate: for a game to specifically provide for telling a story in play, it must have mechanics that enforce that playstyle. What do those games do to do that? What player choices or actions are curtailed or prohibited, if any?
I'm not sure what you mean by "what player choices or actions are curtailed?" I mean, the most straightforward answer is none. But presumably that's not the answer you're looking for?

In conventional D&D play, what sorts of actions are curtailed or prohibited? Well, if the rules tell you that your PC is dead, that affects permitted action declarations. Likewise if the rules tell you that your PC is paralysed, or trapped in an oubliette, or whatever.

Upthread I posted the rules for duels from Wuthering Heights. In those rules, if both duellists fail to role below their Rage then "they stop the duel and become friends, or something like that. They would not fight again for 1d10 days." So if the rules tell you that you're not fighting with someone anymore -that you become friends, or something like that - then that affects your permitted action declarations.

Consider again the PC trapped in the oubliette. Suppose the player declares, "I search for a secret way out." In conventional D&D play, the most important factor in determining whether or not the character succeeds in their attempt to find a secret way out is what decision has the GM made about whether or not there is a secret way out of this oubliette. In Marvel Heroic RP, by way of contrast, there is no GM decision of that sort that is relevant to resolving the declared action: it is resolved by a roll against the Doom Pool (as augmented by any appropriate Scene Distinctions, such as (eg) No Way Out). In Burning Wheel, depending on further details no roll may be required for the PC to find a way out; but if a roll is required then again its outcome will not depend on a GM decision, but will depend upon the result of a roll on Perception or Secret Passage-wise or whatever skill(s) the player and GM agree is relevant to resolving the declared action.

Games have rules and procedures, and these determine what actions can be declared, how they are resolved, etc. Framing this in terms of "curtailment or prohibition" doesn't seem that helpful to me. That assumes some sort of baseline that doesn't exist, even as an ideal.

At minimum you need:

Some kind of organisational question which we’re answering

The principle that you are actually playing to find out what happens as it relates to the question

Attentiveness to the ethos of the characters involved


If you strip out the GM section of GURPS 4 and replace it with those principles, you’d get story orientated play. Well ok in practice you’d need to expand on those principles and probably offer some help setting up a situation but that’s the bare minimum required to distinguish it from a GURPS sandbox.

mechanics in and of themselves do nothing. It's the organising agenda that uses the mechanics that is the thing. Which is why the agenda and principles are so important, more so than the mechanics by far,
I agree with the last sentence. I think you are slightly understating what is required to get "story oriented play" out of GURPS. I'll admit I've never done it with GURPS, but I've done it with Rolemaster. And as well as agenda and principles of the sort that you point to, you also need to be ready to work around mechanics that are resolutely committed to foregrounding an ethos-neutral setting, rather than an ethos-laden situation.

Here's just one example of what I mean: Burning Wheel and Torchbearer 2e have a Circles mechanics, which is similar (not identical) across the two games. It permits a player to make a roll to have their PC encounter a friendly/useful/helpful NPC; the difficulty of the roll is set by a range of factors, including (but not limited to) the degree of the NPC's friendliness/usefulness/helpfulness. If the Circles roll is failed, the GM has a range of options as to how to narrate the failure, but one important one is to bring onto the scene a NPC who is hostile to the player's PC, or at a minimum is unhelpful or unfriendly in a way that foregrounds, but dashes, the hopes the PC had which the player was giving effect to by making the Circles roll.

Here's an example from actual play:
The session then focused predominantly upon Thoth. His Beliefs are I will give the dead new life; Aedhros is a failure, so I will bind him to my will; Cometh the corpse, cometh Thoth! And the player leaned heavily into these. Thoth also has a rather idiosyncratic pattern of speech - something of a lisp, and at least a hint of a European, perhaps German, accent.

Thoth wanted to go to the docks to find corpses, of those who had died at sea.

<snip>

A die of fate roll indicated that one corpse was available for collection, and Aedhros helped Thoth carry it off.

<snip>

Thoth successfully performed Taxidermy - against Ob 5 - to preserve the corpse, with a roll good enough to carry over +1D advantage to the Death Art test but did not what to attempt the Ob 7 Death Art (with his Death Art 5) until he could be boosted by Blood Magic. And so he sent Aedhros out to find a victim

Aedhros had helped collect the corpse, and also helped with the Taxidermy (using his skill with Heart-seeker), but was unable to help with the Death Art. He was reasonably happy to now leave the workshop; and was no stranger to stealthy kidnappings in the dark. I told my friend (now GMing) that I wanted to use Stealthy, Inconspicuous and Knives to spring upon someone and force them, at knife point, to come with me to the workshop. He called for a linked test first, on Inconspicuous with Stealth FoRKed in. This succeeded, and Aedhros found a suitable place outside a house of ill-repute, ready to kidnap a lady of the night. When a victim appeared, Aedhros tried to force a Steel test (I think - my memory is a bit hazy) but whatever it was, it failed, and the intended victim went screaming into the night. Now there is word on the street of a knife-wielding assailant.

Aedhros's Beliefs are I will avenge the death of my spouse!, Thurandril will admit that I am right! and I will free Alicia and myself from the curse of Thoth!; and his Instincts are Never use Song of Soothing unless compelled to, Always repay hurt with hurt, and When my mind is elsewhere, quietly sing the elven lays. Having failed at the most basic task, and not knowing how to return to Thoth empty-handed, Aedhros wandered away from the docks, up into the wealthier parts of the city, to the home of the Elven Ambassador. As he sang the Elven lays to himself, I asked the GM for a test on Sing, to serve as a linked test to help in my next test to resist Thoth's bullying and depravity. The GM set my Spite of 5 as the obstacle, and I failed - a spend of a fate point only got me to 4 successes on 4 dice.

My singing attracted the attention of a guard, who had heard the word on the street, and didn't like the look of this rag-clothed Dark Elf. Aedhros has Circles 3 and a +1 reputation with the Etharchs, and so I rolled my 4 dice to see if an Etharch (whether Thurandril or one of his underlings or associates) would turn up here and now to tell the guards that I am right and they should not arrest me. But the test failed, and the only person to turn up was another guard to join the first in bundling me off. So I had to resort to the more mundane method of offering them 1D of loot to leave me alone. The GM accepted this, no test required.

Then, repaying hurt with hurt, Aedhros followed one of the guards - George, as we later learned he was called - who also happened to be the one with the loot. Aedhros ambushed him from the darkness, and took him at knife point back to the workshop, where Thoth subject him to the necessary "treatment"
I've included the context leading up to the Circles roll, because it is important for seeing how the outcome of the Circles roll contributed to story: Aedhros, who is a Dark Elf in the Tolkien-esque sense, is being bullied and dictated to by Thoth; he tries to abduct a woman, but fails; he then has the possibility of rising above this sordidness, first by Singing - but this fails, and so the GM narrates that a guard comes - and then the Circles attempt, to have Elves turn up and affirm Aedhros, also fails - and so the GM narrates another guard coming. And then, presented with this situation as a player, and playing my character, Aedhros falls back into sordidness - first bribing the guards, and then kidnapping one of them so that Thoth can perform Blood Magic on him.

Rolemaster (and I think this is also true of GURPS) has no analogue of the narration of Circles failure (or of Singing failure, for that matter): there's no provision for using the failed Streetwise or Etiquette or whatever test as a trigger for escalating the conflict across the moral line/question that is the focus of play. And so it's much harder to reliably get rising action culminating in climax/resolution.

@Reynard, this example should also answer some of your questions. There's no prohibition/curtailment of action declarations. But there are principles that govern how situations are established and how consequences are decided upon. This is what creates the story, in the sense of protagonists in a situation of conflict, with rising action and climax/resolution.

Of course, in AD&D 2nd ed, the GM can narrate a guard turning up if they like. But there is no process to govern this - they can do it if the Sing check is successful, and they don't have to do anything if the Sing check fails other than narrate that Aedhros can't sing well today (which undercuts the sense of a protagonist in a conflict, because it tends to make the characters look silly). Story won't result unless the GM decides that it will - which means that authorship of a story is required. That's not the case in Burning Wheel: the GM just has to follow the rules for how to narrate the consequence of a failed roll.
 

While I may agree with not getting that outcome naturally, I don't think that is only definition of story, and that you can have stories without conflict / rising action, and that dnd 2e cpuld generate those sorts of stories.
I'm not entirely sure what you have in mind.

I mean, yes, you'll get a series of events that occur. But is that all you mean?
 

While I may agree with not getting that outcome naturally, I don't think that is only definition of story, and that you can have stories without conflict / rising action, and that dnd 2e cpuld generate those sorts of stories.
Some folks in this thread should read Meander, Spiral, Explode: Design and Pattern in Narrative by Jane Allison. It’s all about ways of organizing narratives other than arcs, with many many examples, and is fascinating. It’s soeedednip me getting to my next few gaming sessions, because u want to try out several of her ideas.
 

I'm not entirely sure what you have in mind.

I mean, yes, you'll get a series of events that occur. But is that all you mean?
You will get a series of events, but post events i think you can readily tie them together into a story as such. I think with dnd it is a post session thing where would string the events into a story, as a lot of in game play is determining things like do I hit, does anyone need to make a saving throw, what are results, is enough damage done to drop a for, and only later can you tie the series of events into a narrative as such, against other systems where you can sort of craft story within the process more. E.g. with my limited experience of the new Discworld game, it isnt a roll to hit sort of thing, but more stating directly im going to leap over this barrel and catch the falling dragon, with die roll meaning either succeed, or DM to say you keep over barrel and fall on face, and Dragon lands on you and explodes or the like.
But either way, directly in play or as a result of play, I think a story forms.
It may not follow a structure of rising conflict / climax etc, and maybe be more a slice of life for adventurers, but is a story nonetheless.
 

Some folks in this thread should read Meander, Spiral, Explode: Design and Pattern in Narrative by Jane Allison. It’s all about ways of organizing narratives other than arcs, with many many examples, and is fascinating. It’s soeedednip me getting to my next few gaming sessions, because u want to try out several of her ideas.
I was somewhat inspired also by overgeekeds post in what are you reading about kishōtenketsu story structure, and recognizing i quite like that sort of structure, that line up with some of my comfort sort of reads, where a lot less 'stress' than reading books with a lot of tension etc.
 

You will get a series of events, but post events i think you can readily tie them together into a story as such. I think with dnd it is a post session thing where would string the events into a story, as a lot of in game play is determining things like do I hit, does anyone need to make a saving throw, what are results, is enough damage done to drop a for, and only later can you tie the series of events into a narrative as such
Yes, this is true.

I think it's quite different from actually having the story manifest during play.
 

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