Let's talk about "plot", "story", and "play to find out."

And I just want to reiterate: when you frame things as "FICTION BADNESS HAPPENING, characterX what do you do?" and then the character goes "I do cool awesome thing!" then we go "hell yeah that's awesome! so like, trying to do Y?" and they're like "yup, so that Z" and then we go "ok, so that's Risky but Limited, because you know..." it all seems to feel pretty fiction->mechanics.
Pushing back a bit here regarding how you play it vs what I perceive as the intended purpose of the rule structure. I thought the whole point of BitD clarifying position and effect after a ‘declared action’ was so a player could say oh, I didn’t realize the effect would be so little so im going to do X instead. This enables transparency to the player around the mechanics so that they are making informed decisions.

is this accurate?

If so the logic flow would be something like:
Propose fictional action -> Learn mechanical specifics -> Decide whether to commit to that action or propose another

Contrast this to a less transparent mechanical system like 5e d&d skills.
Declare fictional action -> DM decides whether you succeed/fail/enter mechanical framework and if any penalties apply

The transparency followed by the ability to opt for a different action place the mechanical decision front and center or at least allow a player to treat it that way if desired.

This isn’t to say players don’t consider mechanics at all in 5e but they cannot min max their chances on the next action to the same degree due to the lack of transparency and that has a profound effect on whether players engage more with deciding their next action on the fictional level or the mechanical level.

Note: when it comes to action decisions players can always ignore either the fiction or the mechanics at their whim, so the best we can talk of is in tendencies.
 

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Pushing back a bit here regarding how you play it vs what I perceive as the intended purpose of the rule structure. I thought the whole point of BitD clarifying position and effect after a ‘declared action’ was so a player could say oh, I didn’t realize the effect would be so little so im going to do X instead. This enables transparency to the player around the mechanics so that they are making informed decisions.

is this accurate?

If so the logic flow would be something like:
Propose fictional action -> Learn mechanical specifics -> Decide whether to commit to that action or propose another

Contrast this to a less transparent mechanical system like 5e d&d skills.
Declare fictional action -> DM decides whether you succeed/fail/enter mechanical framework and if any penalties apply

The transparency followed by the ability to opt for a different action place the mechanical decision front and center or at least allow a player to treat it that way if desired.

This isn’t to say players don’t consider mechanics at all in 5e but they cannot min max their chances on the next action to the same degree due to the lack of transparency and that has a profound effect on whether players engage more with deciding their next action on the fictional level or the mechanical level.

Note: when it comes to action decisions players can always ignore either the fiction or the mechanics at their whim, so the best we can talk of is in tendencies.
I don't think is quite accurate. 5E players min-max all the time by trying to shade play in the direction of their best skills and then it's up the GM to decide when and how to push back via penalties or outright denial. They also advantage fish pretty constantly. They don't need additional transparency to hunt for mechanical bonuses as the important mechanics are already player facing.

You've missed the part of the Blades procedure where the player can decide to trade position of effect (or vice versa), perhaps contained in your use of 'clarify'. That's a really important mechanical moment in the system that proceeds a decision to try another action. You also mayb be underselling the extent to which even rough familiarity gives the players a very solid base on which to base expectations of what P/E will be as they know what the various specific factors are just like the GM does. I'm, not really arguing with you here as I am pointing out some additional decision points.

I do think that the transparency (and mechanical nuance) is a very important element of FitD. It's certainly one of the main reasons I like the design so much.
 

I don't think you've explained it well. Or explained why it's true for these game mechanics and not others. But I don't think we can get past the different way we seem to approach play... so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It is about whether the decision process of the player and character are aligned. More abstracted, disassociated, mechanics create divergence in the decision spaces, and if these mechanics are also complex, then the gameplay becomes more about gaming the mechanics than about the fiction. Which is not even necessarily always a bad thing, more a matter of taste, but it is pretty much opposite of "fiction first."
 

It is about whether the decision process of the player and character are aligned. More abstracted, disassociated, mechanics create divergence in the decision spaces, and if these mechanics are also complex, then the gameplay becomes more about gaming the mechanics than about the fiction. Which is not even necessarily always a bad thing, more a matter of taste, but it is pretty much opposite of "fiction first."

Please name the RPG that aligns the decision process of player and character, does not abstact the game world, and allows one to make play decisions without regard to the mechanics.
 

Please name the RPG that aligns the decision process of player and character, does not abstact the game world, and allows one to make play decisions without regard to the mechanics.

I don't think any RPG fully does it. It is a spectrum. I already said that I think Apocalypse World is more fiction first than Blades in the Dark. And even out of combat play in games like D&D can be very fiction firsts, even though the combat minigame absolutely isn't.

And I am not saying that games need to endeavour to do this and it is bad design if they don't. But I think this is an important aspect of the game design, and the designer should be aware what they are aiming for.
 
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I don't think any RPG fully dues it. It is a spectrum. I already said that I think Apocalypse World is more fiction first than Blades in the Dark. And even out of combat play in games like D&D can be very fiction firsts, even though the combat minigame absolutely isn't.

And I am not saying that games need to endeavour to do this and it is bad design if they don't. But I think this is an important aspect of the game design, and the designer should be aware what they are aiming for.
I don't think what you're asking for is possible. Note that I didn't respond to a vague assertion of 'fiction first'. I responded to your specific assertions about aligning the decision making process of the player and the character, not abstracting the game world, and not

So best case scenario I am a player in D&D engaged in a situation of social interaction or exploration. There is a question of to what extent I can just say what my character says, or describe what my character does, and what importance that has to resolution compared to the dice roll, but let's leave that for a second.

  • There are a lot of sensory, biological, and social inputs into my character's decision making that I am not privy to. I by contrast have a bird's eye view of the situation gated by another person's description and understanding of the situation.

  • I bring to this situation an understanding that I am playing a game and that there is some expectation that the GM has designed this situation to be gameable or winnable in some way, and that success or failure can have an impact on events going forward because of that conscious design.

  • When we roll the dice I have to decide whether to spend an Inspiration, whether I or another character casts blessing on me, whether I use a short rest or long rest ability that might help me, what my (precisely known) skill modifiers are and therefore which approach is best, or whether I am even the right character to be attempting this.

  • When we roll the dice I also have to consider to at least some extent what my remaining hit points and spell/ability slots are, if this thing goes south (and although IRL we also have some element of this, we do not know we have exactly 23 HP and 2 short rest powers left)
 

I don't think what you're asking for is possible.

Yes, it is not fully possible, as the player literally never is the character and have all the exact same information than the character. Not even in a LARP. But you can get closer to, or farther from it. I think it would be rather weird to say that because there cannot be a full alignment, the level of alignment does not matter, and Apocalypse World and Monopoly are just the same as in neither the character and player decision spaces are 100% aligned.

But yeah, you list of reasons for divergence certainly is a good one. Such things always exist to some extent, I am not denying that.
 
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It is about whether the decision process of the player and character are aligned. More abstracted, disassociated, mechanics create divergence in the decision spaces, and if these mechanics are also complex, then the gameplay becomes more about gaming the mechanics than about the fiction. Which is not even necessarily always a bad thing, more a matter of taste, but it is pretty much opposite of "fiction first."
I want to counter this spurious Alexandrian claim about dissociated mechanics using two recent examples from the 4E D&D game I'm playing in right now.

In the first, the party was traveling back through dangerous alpine topography to the fey outpost of New Sharandar in Neverwinter Woods. They had just defeated a group of werewolf Uthgardt barbarians and cowed the remaining members of the clan and their frost giant leader, an agent of the evil winter goddess Auril, to leave for the frigid lands of the north in exile. In retaliation, Auril invokes a supernatural storm to beset them, and the group faces a Hard DC in a Skill Challenge.

My PC, who is a Winterkin eladrin Wizard and descendent of the Pale Prince, and thus in direct conflict with Auril on a cosmological level over control of the sphere of winter and so on, decided to face this obstacle by intimidating the air and storm elementals who command the storm at Auril's behest, essentially a flex that my cold is bigger than your cold.

Looking at my character sheet, I chose to use the Encounter Cantrip Spook, which allows me to substitute my Arcana score (at +14) for my Intimidate score (at +3) vs the Hard DC of 21. She shouts out a challenge, identifying herself as daughter to the Pale Prince and reminding the elementals that her father had dethroned Auril (as Queen of Air and Storm) from her domain over the Winter Court in Faerie, infusing the threat with arcane shadow and menace. I felt confident in my chances here, both from the mechanical chances of making that roll successfully (I had a 70% chance) and the knowledge that the Pale Prince had defeated Auril before. So when I rolled an 18 and crushed that 21 DC, I exulted with the arrogance and surety of an eladrin noblewoman.

Later in the game, our group was traveling from New Sharandar to Helm's Deep. Things had been going swimmingly so far, but now we faced a rickety wooden bridge that spanned a narrow stretch of the Neverwinter River, which raged and steamed below (the river is heated by the geothermal + supernatural influence of nearby Mt Hotenow). We knew the going would be difficult--rickety bridges collapsing midway is a frequent trope of adventure movies and so on--but we had no other good and expedient means of crossing the river, magical or otherwise, so we decided to risk it by making a Group Acrobatic check against the Moderate DC. (In Group checks in 4E, at least half of the party must succeed for the action to succeed as a whole.) The DC was 14, and the 4 PCs have bonuses of +3, +5, +5, and +3 in Acrobatics, so any combination that saw 2 PCs roll 9 or higher or 2 roll 11 or higher would succeed. Roughly 50-50 chances in other words. A lot would ride on those rolls.

The first PC rolled a 4. Failure! The tension mounted. Now we needed 2 out of 3 to succeed. The next rolled a 6. Another failure! Now we were in truly dire straits, as the remaining PCs were the ones with low Acrobatics scores. When the third PC rolled a 1, well that certainly reflected the catastrophe of the situation in the shared imaginative space and the "room" of the game itself.

So I think the claims that there is a disconnect between the decision processes and attendant emotional arc of the characters and players is a false one, or, at the very least, an individual one based on the habits of playing formed over years with various systems and approaches to play. The excitement of playing the game--and seeing the fiction matched by mechanical widgets to represent it--is more exciting to me than the kind of freeform storytelling without true game that you seem to prefer.
 

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Pushing back a bit here regarding how you play it vs what I perceive as the intended purpose of the rule structure. I thought the whole point of BitD clarifying position and effect after a ‘declared action’ was so a player could say oh, I didn’t realize the effect would be so little so im going to do X instead. This enables transparency to the player around the mechanics so that they are making informed decisions.

is this accurate?

If so the logic flow would be something like:
Propose fictional action -> Learn mechanical specifics -> Decide whether to commit to that action or propose another

Contrast this to a less transparent mechanical system like 5e d&d skills.
Declare fictional action -> DM decides whether you succeed/fail/enter mechanical framework and if any penalties apply

The transparency followed by the ability to opt for a different action place the mechanical decision front and center or at least allow a player to treat it that way if desired.

This isn’t to say players don’t consider mechanics at all in 5e but they cannot min max their chances on the next action to the same degree due to the lack of transparency and that has a profound effect on whether players engage more with deciding their next action on the fictional level or the mechanical level.

Note: when it comes to action decisions players can always ignore either the fiction or the mechanics at their whim, so the best we can talk of is in tendencies.

So most of the intent here is to not "trap" a player if they misunderstand teh fictional situation or have a different understanding than the GM does. I don't think I've ever seen a player at my tables change their Action choice because of juggling for maximized mechanical effect, but occasionally because of "oh wait, X? oh crap, uhh lets see I could use load out here but what if I did Y instead?" I'm sure you could have that table situation occur, but mostly it's just a rare discussion of clarification than anything more overt (also the game generally suggests to assume Risky/Standard as the default unless otherwise warranted).

Same thing as when a player says something in a PBTA and I'm like "well you're definitely going to be Defying teh Danger of XYZ if you do that" and they go "oh, hm, ok let me think a second I didn't realize the thing's reach was that far" or whatever.
 

But "unnecessarily" isn't what I'd call them. Again... if the purpose of a GM narrating events of play is to give the players an idea of what's going on... to inform the players as much as the characters would be informed, or as close to that as possible... then I don't think any tool that helps with that is "unnecessary". Such a tool sounds quite helpful.

If there's a specific player at the table whose ability to immerse in the game or the setting or their character is so fragile that a Clock shatters it, then all I can say to them is "this game is not for you" and again, wonder if RPGs in general might not be the right choice.
So what I'm hearing is that if you don't enjoy RPGs the same way you do, then you shouldn't be playing your RPG, or possibly any RPG?
 

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