Let's talk about the AD&D 1e Dungeon Master's Guide

[Akrasia]

I wouldn't use the words "advanced", but would agree to "simplified." Ever notice how all the extra space in 3E and 3.5 is devoted to new feats, classes, and spells? You take those out, and you've got one heck of a simple rules system; the rest is just variety in the window dressing.
...

Sadly, IME, the "simple rules system" is lost in the quagmire of combat rules governing AoOs, 5-foot steps, endless modifiers, different kinds of ACs, etc.

Not to mention feats (can't take them out of 3E without fundamentally altering the game), skills, various modifiers, etc.

It never ceases to amaze me how in theory 3E has a "simple rules system", but in practice it is by far the most complicated and slow version of D&D that I have ever played. (And I've played every version, except the version of 2E with all the "options".)

Despite its many flaws, 1E AD&D played pretty fast. (It is not my favourite version of the game, nor is it the fastest. In fact, it is pretty rules-heavy and incoherent in places. But despite all its faults, 1E AD&D games rarely dragged, and combat did not take ages to resolve.)

And the 1E AD&D manuals -- especially the DMG -- were fun to read!


In contrast, the 3E books are often as dry as dust. Reading them reminds me of my mathematical logic textbook from graduate school. (Okay, okay, I'm exaggerating...)

To conclude: the 1E DMG is an inspired work. It is poorly organized, but includes so many gems of wisdom, and interesting "opinion artices" and charts, that I still find it useful for non-1E games.


(Oh yeah, just to be clear, this is all my opinion, yada yada yada, so don't freak out if you think I'm 'dissing' your fave version of D&D. )

 

[francisca]

must have read my mind.

Ditto. Agree 100% with everything you said.

I find that the 1E AD&D DMG is my favorite RPG product of all time.

 

[David Howery]

Gawds, yes. The brazen strumpet, the slovenly trull, the cheap trollop, the wanton wench.

not to mention the expensive courteson...

when 2E came out, there was no longer a random chart for hookers.. pity...
you gotta know this stuff when you're a DM...

 

[The_Gunslinger658]

I played 1E AD&D and it was not as much fun as 3E is. With 3E, Instead of playing for years to attain 10 th level, It can be done in months. Still, if your one of those DM's who want to keep advancment slow, just halv the EXP's earned.

As for combat, as long as you have your notes ready and a good working knowledge of the combat rules, the melee's should not last more then 30 minutes of real time. Also, avoid using a battle mate if you can, this really can detract from play as the player will take more time to ponder there tactical situation.
Give the player's a sitrep IE your there, the monsters are there about 20 infront of you, the room is very large roll for initiative.

KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid


Scott

Sadly, IME, the "simple rules system" is lost in the quagmire of combat rules governing AoOs, 5-foot steps, endless modifiers, different kinds of ACs, etc.

Not to mention feats (can't take them out of 3E without fundamentally altering the game), skills, various modifiers, etc.

It never ceases to amaze me how in theory 3E has a "simple rules system", but in practice it is by far the most complicated and slow version of D&D that I have ever played. (And I've played every version, except the version of 2E with all the "options".)

Despite its many flaws, 1E AD&D played pretty fast. (It is not my favourite version of the game, nor is it the fastest. In fact, it is pretty rules-heavy and incoherent in places. But despite all its faults, 1E AD&D games rarely dragged, and combat did not take ages to resolve.)

And the 1E AD&D manuals -- especially the DMG -- were fun to read!


In contrast, the 3E books are often as dry as dust. Reading them reminds me of my mathematical logic textbook from graduate school. (Okay, okay, I'm exaggerating...)

To conclude: the 1E DMG is an inspired work. It is poorly organized, but includes so many gems of wisdom, and interesting "opinion artices" and charts, that I still find it useful for non-1E games.


(Oh yeah, just to be clear, this is all my opinion, yada yada yada, so don't freak out if you think I'm 'dissing' your fave version of D&D. )

 

[Akrasia]

Well, I don't want to get into an "editions war" here. And in fact, there are many things that I like and dislike about both 1E and 3E.

But here some quick replies to your comments:

... With 3E, Instead of playing for years to attain 10 th level, It can be done in months. ...

Ugh. Level inflation means that levels are less valuable. :\

The idea that an 18 year old peasant boy can zip up to demi-god status in a few months is just ridiculous IMO. I hate the default level progression rate in 3E.

But as you point out, the DM can just change the advancement rate in order to make level progression more sane and plausible.

As for combat, as long as you have your notes ready ...

This is another one of my big pet-peeves with 3E: it takes HOURS to get one's "notes ready" ahead of time, especially for NPCs. The problem becomes exponentially worse the higher the level of the NPC in question.

Just thinking about getting a statblock ready for a 15th level NPC makes me want to chew on broken glass.

Give the player's a sitrep IE your there, the monsters are there about 20 infront of you, the room is very large roll for initiative.

Sorry, but I just don't understand this at all. :\

More generally, I am not sure why you're trying to argue with me here. I'm glad that you and your group are having "more fun" with 3E.

As for "my fun" (and I am a selfish person, after all), I've DM'ed almost every version of the game, including two 3E campaigns, and as a DM I just do not enjoy how slow and rules-heavy 3E is in practice. I have tried many "tricks" and "short cuts" in order to make 3E work for me -- but nothing has worked well enough to make me want to stick with it. I don't hate DM'ing 3E. I just find DM'ing other systems far more enjoyable.

My DM memories of 1E are generally very positive: games were fast-paced, and prep time was minimal. In addition, I could focus on the aspects of DM'ing that I liked the most: campaign and plot design, the construction of interesting situations to challenge the PCs, rolling up random prostitutes and herbs with the 1E DMG, etc.

Much of this is nostalgia, to be sure. I would not DM 1E again. But I have played a number of other systems in recent years and weeks -- Unisystem, Rules Cyclopedia D&D, and Castles & Crusades -- that suit my style far more than 3E. All these systems require far less tedious prep work (long statblocks, etc.) than 3E, and run much more quickly as well. In short, they are systems I actually have fun DM'ing.

I am happy to play in another person's 3E campaign. But after I wrap up the current part of my home-brew 3E campaign, I will never use the system again. It just takes too much time to prep, and is too much work to actually run, for my tastes (and career health). I have enough stress at work -- I don't need it as a DM as well.


Anyway, this is all irrelevant with respect to subject of this thread: the virtues of the 1E DMG.

The 1E AD&D DMG was great. Period.

 

[MerricB]

The idea that an 18 year old peasant boy can zip up to demi-god status in a few months is just ridiculous IMO. I hate the default level progression rate in 3E.

It's actually been that way in all editions of D&D - depending on the DM. Earlier editions of D&D promoted more of a level gain every six sessions.

This was slightly slower, but it was still extremely fast compared to "reality".

Cheers!

 

[Algolei]

(Hey, screw all this argumefying already!!)

I love the 1E DMG. By far the best RPG rulebook ever written. I still take it to bed with me some nights to read before dropping off to sleep.

 

[the Jester]

The 1e dmg is an ispiration and a fantastic piece of gaming history. It has an incredible wealth of ideas in it waiting to be mined, fantastic art, tremendous rules and, of course, artifacts.

The low point of the book is, of course, the unarmed combat rules. Clunky and useless... really really bad. Gygax has confessed that he put them in against his own better judgement- the revised rules in UA were much better.

But other than that particular stinker, the book is great. From discussing the bell curve and the dice to the appendix on herbs, it's packed full of useful tidbits. Disease or parasitic infection, anyone? How about aging rules? Hmm, how about gemstone affinities so you can plan what kind of gem is set in the flame tongue's hilt? Yep, all there.

Ahh, and the art was great! The green giant breathing on the kobolds- all teh funnies- the dude in the trap with the skeleton coming up out of the water behind him- that naught succubus in the back- and especially Emirikol the Chaotic. Oh, yeah- that picture rocks so damn hard it hurts.

The random everything charts in the back were fantastic, too. Man, that book was the font of years of fun for me! Gets me all excited just thinkng about it.

Aaaand a quick tangent...

Earlier editions of D&D promoted more of a level gain every six sessions... This was slightly slower, but it was still extremely fast compared to "reality".

One of the key 'power-ups' in 3.x is that you now heal more than 1 hp/day through natural rest. Healing time always made adventurers take a lot longer to recover between adventures, in my experience. Even with clerics- remember, in 1e you have cure light wounds for 1d8 as a first level spell... then cure serious wounds as a fourth level spell, for (iirc) 2d8+3! 3.x healing, in all respects, seriously outshines this. Granted, earlier editions dealt less damage... but still, earlier edition healing definitely took longer.

 

[MerricB]

The Quick Guide to the Dungeon Masters Guide, 1st edition

Introduction - The DMG has the rules the DM needs for the game; explanations for the rules are given, so that the DM understands why the game is as it is, so that the DM is informed when changing the system.

Dice and Miniatures - What's the difference between linear and bell curve probability? Use official miniatures to spice up the game.

Creating the Player Character - Various ways of rolling ability scores, and the effect of Wishes and Age on such. Disease, Secondary Skills and Death.

Character Abilities - What are the racial stereoptypes? What followers do high-level PCs get? Descriptions of other PC abilities, including elucidations on thief and assassin abilities. The use of poison is discouraged because it takes the challenge out of the game; monster PCs discouraged likewise. (Major Essay)

Alignment - The use and descriptions of the alignments and the alignment languages.

Money - Generation of random gems and jewelry; the expenses of PCs. Reputed magical properties of gems, herbs, etc.

Armour, Armour Class & Weapons - The encumbrance of armour and descriptions of the types. The reason the Dex bonus to AC is not lessened by heavy armour (Minor Essay).

Hirelings - Mercenaries, sages and other experts

Henchmen - How to hire, and their loyalty once hired.

Time - The importance of keeping track of time in the campaign (Major Essay); keeping track of time in the dungeon.

Character Spells - Acquisition of spells for the classes and the starting spellbook of the MU. Expanded notes on judging various spells.

The Adventure - Running outdoor adventures, including random encounters. How to become lost. Adventures in the air, including flying mounts. Waterborne adventures, including vessel descriptions, wind, vessel damage, boarding, ramming and so forth. Underwater adventures, adjustments to combat, movement and spells. The Planes (Minor Essay). Outdoor movement rates. Infravision, Ultravision and Invisibility (Minor Essays); Mirror, Detection of Evil/Good; Listening at doors.

Combat - Description of procedures including Surprise, Initiative (most confusing version!), Action types, Encounter reactions, Missile discharge, Parleying, Charging, Turning Undead, Spell Casting during melee, Unarmed Combat, Pursuit and evasion. Melee, including an example. The Attack Matrices - to hit, psionics, saving throws, turn undead. Notes on saving throws. Item saves. What hit points are (Minor essay). Effects of Alcohol and drugs; Insanity.

Experience - Assessment and division of XP. Monster XP, Treasure XP - modified by the challenge of the encounter. Training rules.

The Campaign - What is a campaign? (essay), Setting things in motion (essay); Climate & Ecology; Social Class and Rank (major essay); Town and city social structure; Economics; Taxes (essay); Monster Populations and placement (major essay); Placement of Monetary treasure (major essay); Placement of magic items (major essay); Territory development by PCs; Peasants, serfs and slaves; A sample dungeon, the first dungeon adventure.

Non-Player Characters - Trait tables; Special roles of the DM; Hiring NPCs to cast spells; Monsters and organisation (major essay) including descriptions of what happens when PCs leave and them come back. Use of non-human troops.

Construction & Siege - Underground construction; building castles (with component costs); War machine stats; Siege attack values.

Conducting the Game - Rolling the dice and control of the game; handling troublesome players; integration of experienced or new players into an ongoing game; multiple PCs for one player; deity intervention; The ongoing campaign - using boot hill and gamma world in D&D.

Magical Research - Creating holy water; Researching spells; Fabrication of Magic items; Non-standard Magic Items.

Use of Magic Items - Command Words, Scrying; Potion Miscibility; Energy Draining.

Treasure - Random map table; random magic item tables; magic item descriptions; artifact descriptions.

Appendices
A) Random Dungeon Generation
B) Random Wilderness Terrain
C) Random Monster Encounters
D) Random Generation of Creatures from the Lower Planes
E) Alphabetical Recapulation of Monsters (including XP values)
F) Gambling
G) Traps
H) Tricks
I) Dungeon Dressing
J) Herbs, Spices and Medicinal Vegetables
K) Describing Magical Substances
L) Conjured Animals
M) Summoned Monsters
N) Inspirational and Educational Reading
O) Encumbrance of Standard Items
P) Creating a Party on the Spur of the Moment

Glossary

Afterword:
IT IS THE SPIRIT OF THE GAME, NOT THE LETTER OF THE RULES, WHICH IS IMPORTANT. NEVER HOLD TO THE LETTER WRITTEN, NOR ALLOW SOME BARRACKS ROOM LAWYER TO FORCE QUOTATIONS FROM THE RULE BOOK UPON YOU, IF IT GOES AGAINST THE OBVIOUS INTENT OF THE GAME. AS YOU HEW THE LINE WITH RESPECT TO CONFORMITY TO MAJOR SYSTEMS AND UNIFORMITY OF PLAY IN GNEERAL, ALSO BE CERTAINTHE GAME IS MASTERED BY YOU AND NOT BY YOUR PLAYERS. WITHIN THE BROAD PARAMETERS GIVEN IN THE ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS VOLUMES, YOU ARE CREATOR AND FINAL ARBITER BY ORDERING THINGS AS THEY SHOULD BE, THE GAME AS A WHOLE FIRST, YOUR CAMPAIGN NEXT, AND YOUR PARTICIPANTS THEREAFTER. YOU WILL BE PLAYING ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS AS IT WAS MEANT TO BE. MAY YOU FIND AS MUCH PLEASURE IN SO DOING AS THE REST OF US DO!

Cheers!

 

[Dr Simon]

The old DMG is a bit of a fun miscellany, really. A lot of the information, whilst comprehensive, really never made its way into my games in a useful fashion. I give you, for example, the article on insanity, the magical properties of herbs and gems (persented at opposite ends of the book!), the random prostitute table.

Some elements that are carried over to 3rd Ed. I prefer. I like the fantasy diseases like Filth Fever and The Shakes compared to the rather more medical version in the old DMG. I like the evocative poison names (Oil of Taggit) compared to Ingestive Type B.

In favour of the 1st Ed. DMG, I always found the illustrations quite evocative - the enigmatic Emirikol The Chaotic, for example (who found his way into a module of his own), and the party of adventurers whose exploits grace the footer of the Random Dungeon pages.

I also like some of the cross-over elements. If you want a wonderfully example of the difference between 1st and 3rd Ed., read the Sample Adventure transcripts - we go from having to talk like "Place the gemstone in your pouch, Good Cleric" to "Cool! I'll appraise it later". The latter version is more like gamers that I have known, but the former is kind of fun in an arch way. Said adventure transcript also, however, nicely highlights the difference between what is covered by the rules in 1st and 3rd Ed., and how much is DM handwaving. You may interpret this as being good or bad in your own fashion....
(The other neat little crossover is the illustration of an adventurer trapped in a room that is filling with water, whilst a skeleton rises to attack them. It's in both 1st and 3rd).

On a final note, I've found that the absolute best rule-book for giving advice on how to run games, is Amber DRPG - easy to read (without being simplistic), chock full of examples, great ideas for presentation, pacing, character development etc.