Let's Talk Blue Rose

[arkham618]

Yeah, you and Crothian have hit the heart of it.

Romantic Fantasy is a subgenre with many different authors, each of whom brings their own viewpoints to their writing.

Calling all of it "laughably politically correct" is completely false, because it's entirely wrong, in the same way that saying all sword & sorcery is "laughably ubermensch" is entirely wrong.

Kushiel's Dart fits comfortably in romantic fantasy, as does Robin Hobb's Assassins trilogy, but the two books are very, very different.

I think the critics of the genre have lost sight of the literary denotation of "romance," which is 1) a medieval tale based on legend, chivalric love and adventure, or the supernatural; 2) a prose narrative treating imaginary characters involved in events remote in time or place and usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious; 3) a love story. The Arthurian tales are romantic fantasies, and no one would think to call them either politically correct or facile.

 

[WayneLigon]

OK, back at home now with the book.

Jarzon: Jarzoni dislike magic in the extreme, because they remember how sorcery (which is a type of inherently corrupting and evil magic) destroyed one of the old nations. Only priests can use magic of any type because only they can be trusted with it. They kill anything of Shadow. Night People (goblins and the like) are killed out of hand. They arrest Vata'sha (dark elves), and accept Vata'an (normal elves). They can take or leave the talking animals but are suspicious of those who form psychic bonds with them. They use mind-magic to reform criminals, heretics and dissidents. They spread rumors of Aldisian psychics toying with the minds of non-criminals. They do not tolerate reilgious diversity; inqusitors are quick to root out and burn out beliefs that are not the hard-line set by the Church of Pure Light. Women are second-class citizens, though are strongly protected. They discriminate against the cepia (those who are attracted to their same sex) because Jarzoni society is strongly geared towards family and procreation - they were very hard hit during the great rebellion against the sorcerer kings, and much of their land is harsh and unforgiving. They lost a great many people and have no use for someone who won't produce babies.

Aldis: They like magic. The queen even accepts that there should be study - but not practice - of sorcery (though they are still strongly suspicious of even the study of sorcery). Aldisians try their best to tolerate any living thing unless it proves itself hurtful or tainted with Shadow. They try to rehabilitate any criminal, even sorcerers. Those they can not rehabilitate are exiled. They beleive in the sanctity of the mind and no principled psychic will invade someone elses mind against his wishes. They couldn't care less about caria/cepia differences. Women and men are interchangable in almost any trade.

Both countries revere the gods of Light. Both hate the Shadowkind and destroy Shadowgates whenever possible.

Two quotes to show that neither society is totally black or white:

On the Jerzoni religion:

The religion is deeply divided in many ways: militaristic but valuing peace, preaching love but often practicing hate. Its priests and the faithful run the gamut, from Light- to Shadow-aligned. The upper levels of the church are riddled with hypocrisy and corruption, but also have some truly good men trying to do what they fervently believe is right, although often based on ignorant views of the world beyond Jarzon’s borders. pp 48

Aldisian views on diversity in the central valley:

While everyone understands ignoring the differences between people is foolish, anyone who judges someone based upon his or her appearance, customs, gender, or similar factors is considered boorish and uncouth, at best. The people of the central valleys know they live in one of the most diverse kingdoms in the world and take pride in the fact that people can live together without the constant feuding and petty hatreds marking interactions of different groups elsewhere. Most residents consider anyone displaying open bigotry a threat to their diversity and their unique way of life. Wiser and kinder residents explain to newcomers and bigots the value of diversity, while others who are less patient either pointedly ignore such people or openly mock their ignorance. Ironically, this gives Aldins a reputation as haughty and arrogant in lands like Jarzon. pp 42

 

[WayneLigon]

I think the critics of the genre have lost sight of the literary denotation of "romance," ...The Arthurian tales are romantic fantasies, and no one would think to call them either politically correct or facile.

True but the traditional literary definition doesn't really apply to this modern fantasy sub-genre. It's unfortunate they use the same words. The PC label can (ironically) swing both ways:

1. Of, relating to, or supporting broad social, political, and educational change, especially to redress historical injustices in matters such as race, class, gender, and sexual orientation.
2. Being or perceived as being overconcerned with such change, often to the exclusion of other matters.

Most people now use the term referring to the second definition; as with all popular buzzwords, it quickly lost it's original meaning.

The amount of 'depth' in the genre is a matter of perception, as it is in all fiction. It varies. There are shallow romantic fantasies and deep, moving ones. Which is which is a matter of opinion.

 

[GreatLemur]

Personally, my issue with the setting has nothing to do with romance or political correctness, (although things are set up as a bit laughably black and white, in that regard), but with its Pretty Fairy Princess-sounding terminology, its unimaginative fantasy novel cliches, and the whole general feeling that the reader is being pandered to.

Though Mercedes Lackey is very successful in the realm of romantic fantasy, I recommend Robin McKinley (Blue Sword and Hero & the Crown) or Greg Keyes (Briar King and Charnel House) over the Valdemar series. Some of the later Valdemar stuff is quite good but the first trilogy is not that great and aimed for a young female audience.

If the Blue Rose fluff took its influences from Keyes, I wouldn't be so conflicted about it. Keyes is deeply, deeply awesome.

 

[Skywalker]

Personally, my issue with the setting has nothing to do with romance or political correctness, (although things are set up as a bit laughably black and white, in that regard), but with its Pretty Fairy Princess-sounding terminology, its unimaginative fantasy novel cliches, and the whole general feeling that the reader is being pandered to.

If you don't mind me asking, which terminology and cliches are you referring to?

If the Blue Rose fluff took its influences from Keyes, I wouldn't be so conflicted about it. Keyes is deeply, deeply awesome.

I think this is where we differ. After reading BR, the world of Aldea and the rule system appear to me to provide a framework that fits almost any romantic fantasy (and potentially any fantasy) story. The rules are essentially a generic fantasy ruleset. The setting is full of areas to fill in, only the very basics have been sketched out. GR have intentionally left open a number of places on just how clear cut or confused and how light or dark things really are. For example, from the material provided so far the nobility could be presented as a den of scheming and WFRP-like corruption or an enlightened state of democracy.

So I can't help feeling that an an unfortunate consequence of GR actually taking efforts to open up the setting, people are filling them with their worst fears. Personally, I like GRs approach. It is more efficient than GR going out of its way to set out exactly what style of fantasy to use BR for. If they do that at all then it seems GR have split that off into a seperate book World of Aldea.

To me BR does Greg Keyes very well

 

[Michael Tree]

After the next 2 supplements are done I want a Faerie setting --

A '17th century" tech upgrade for Swashbuckling would be cool too

Those would be very nice indeed. It's a shame that Blue Rose didn't come out before 7th Sea d20. The setting would be perfect for the BR rules.

I'd also like to see some extra "crunch" support. Stats for additional types of creatures, maybe some extra feats, and definitely additional arcane powers. I'd like to see arcana for shapeshifting, glamors (semi-real illusions), transformations, curses, geasa, and other stapes of pseudo-celtic literature.

 

[whydirt]

Imagine how different people would be reacting to Blue Rose if didn't use the word 'romantic' in the title and the art and trade dress style were changed to mirror standard d20 fantasy games.

Every complaint people have made against the setting of Aldea could probably be made for almost any other fantasy setting if you wanted to make an objective critique.

I guess the silver lining of all of this is that the controversy will hopefully create more buzz and lead to higher sales of Blue Rose.

 

[GreatLemur]

'Sup, whydirt!

If you don't mind me asking, which terminology and cliches are you referring to?

The Eternal Dance. Spirit dancers. The Gods of Light. The Knights of Purity. Darkfiends. The Scatterstar Archipelago. Star marriages. Every permutation of the word "Shadow" in the book.

I can't stand the fact that they actually call their Generic Formless Evil "the Shadow." I can't stand the tarot card silliness. I can't stand the fact that all rhydan are exactly the types of animals one expects to see on airbrushed Trapper Keepers from the early 90s. I can't stand the relentless prettiness of every concept in the setting.

It's as if, in trying to embody the ideals of romantic fantasy, they took it a few steps too far and produced something that feels more like a parody of the fantasy genre. (That's not to say that most other fantasy RPGs tend to be full of revolutionary new spins on the genre, of course. It's just that I find the particular tone here to be rather grating.)

I don't really get the feeling that the authors are into this kind of thing themselves, but are assuming their intended audience is. And I think their intended audience ought to feel a little insulted.

I think this is where we differ. After reading BR, the world of Aldea and the rule system appear to me to provide a framework that fits almost any romantic fantasy (and potentially any fantasy) story. The rules are essentially a generic fantasy ruleset.

Oh, I wouldn't claim that the Blue Rose rules aren't reuseable, not by a long shot. I'm definitely interested in repurposing them for a completely new setting. I'd replace the existing races, shift the emphasis of magic away from nature-wankery, scrap alignment completely, and generally houserule it up a little, but the bare bones of the thing--superior bare bones to those of standard d20, I think--aren't inextricable from the setting.

Honestly, I'd be first in line to play if somebody wanted to run a Blue Rose game on these forums. I just really dislike about 50% of the designers' decisions.

 

[mmadsen]

Would that be more, less, or about as facile as a Conanesque "I want to crush my enemies beneath my heels and hear the lamentations of their girlfriends" ubermensch philosophy?

Just asking...

Absolutely. Only it's a "manly" philosophy rather than a "girly" one. It's "why don't we just kick all their asses?" rather than "why can't everyone just get along?"

 

[ThoughtBubble]

So, the real burning question on my mind is, how easy is the game to run? How quick can you set up NPC's? That's one of my real burning concerns lately. I'm looking for a game that's super easy to use. Especially with regards to generating NPC's, opponents, and monsters in short amounts of time. The prep-work (mostly of generating foes) unfortunately has killed my alternate M&M game, and stalled my D20 game.

And on a random, completely setting based note, I think I could really use the setting well. While some of it sounds a little done, there is a lot of stuff in there that's usable. I think it's a good set up for contrast. Things sound pretty decent and generally straightforward. That makes the twists that come up during play even better. It's like a free upgrade from unsettling to mind wrenching. Plus, it could help out with the 'having to use bad ends towards good things', idea that I alwasy seem to find in my games.

Besides, there are some people I can lure into games with it.

Now... If it's just easy to use.