D&D 5E Lets Talk Spells

[Stormonu]

I think metamagic effects (mass, silence, extend, etc.) should be handled in a tone similar to the fighter's manuevers. If fighters are to use manuever dice to add something like a trip to an attack, wizards should be allowed to add a set number to the spell level for the metamagic effect. If fighters are going to be required to have feats for certain manuevers, wizards should take feats as well. If fighters will be allowed X Number of free maneuvers per encounter or day, then spellcasters should be looking at have a similar set number of these metamagics.

Whichever method is used, I really hope they keep away from building metamagic directly into the spells, so we can get more unique spells into the limited space available for such things.

 

[Kobold Stew]

HP Thresholds
Honestly these stink. The mechanic is trying to model more powerful creatures are immune to lower level spell effects but does not actually accomplish what it is trying to model. Some creatures have low HP due to poor rolling of HD and they are now affected by magic that they should otherwise ignore. On the opposite a creature with a very high CON score can become all but immune to these types of spells coupled with a few good HD rolls. Another issue is the idea that the spell has no effect. The creature who has more HP effectively has 100% SR vs. that effect. A nicer way to handle this would be to limit duration dramatically, or have a secondary lesser effect occur. As written it does not sit well with me. Surely another mechanic can be put in place to model this better.

Isn't the solution for the HP threshold simply to determine the threshold by level of the monster? Not the hit dice but the level listed under "encounter building" on each entry?

From what I can see the information is not being used for anything else right now. More importantly, it's absolutely the easiest thing to fix: it takes all other abilities of the creature into account, and marks clearly the challenge the creature poses. And if a mistake is made, it is absolutely the easiest thing to update in errata since it is a number that emerges from all the other stats, and does not affect them in any way.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I like HP Thresholds in concept, but for them to work, everyone of level X needs to have Y hit points.

I'm not sure I understand why.

The point of the HP thresholds is that they target the same thing that damage does. The target has to be weakened enough that the spell becomes effective. Sleep is like a fireball, except instead of killing the target, it puts them to sleep, but only if they were weak enough that the fireball would have killed them.

A target with a larger hit die is more resilient to these kinds of effects in the same way they're more resilient to damage. Seems to me that this is as intended.

 

[RangerWickett]

It's just odd that if you try to mind control a person with a high willpower, they're typically of a class with fewer hit points. So if you use HP Thresholds, it's easier to mind control a cleric than a fighter.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

It's just odd that if you try to mind control a person with a high willpower, they're typically of a class with fewer hit points. So if you use HP Thresholds, it's easier to mind control a cleric than a fighter.

I didn't notice that Command is still using maximum HP as a threshold. I agree, I don't like that. All the other mind affecting spells use a simple save. I'd be much more okay with it if it were current HP.

 

[RangerWickett]

Even then, you have to punch a fighter a few times before he's as susceptible as a wizard.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Even then, you have to punch a fighter a few times before he's as susceptible as a wizard.

Yes. That would be the point of using Hit Points.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Ok so I am going to hit on several important points on where spells are and then perhaps give some opinions on how to fix, or later in the thread. A lot of this stuff feels like moving targets but....

You make a lot of good points.

HP Thresholds: I totally agree that this is an awful mechanic. Fortunately, there are very few spells left that use it. I hope that with the next packet, they finish the job and remove it from the game completely.

Scaling: I agree with you that a lot of non-damaging spells should be able to scale with higher level slots. Mirror Image, for example, could add +1 image per spell level above 2nd.

Spell Levels: Yes, some of the spells need to have their level adjusted. Air walk, for example, is inferior to fly, but it's a level higher. I think fly should be 5th level. The ability to fly is a game-changer, and shouldn't be something that is available so early, IMO.

Schools: In the past, some spells belonged to multiple schools. I think they should bring that back. While I agree that healing makes no sense whatsoever as conjuration, I don't agree with you that healing should be abjuration, however. I think healing makes the most sense as Necromancy.

 

[Falling Icicle]

The biggest issue for spells for me was discussed in this thread.

Targeted spells (such as the Cleric's Lance of Faith) do not require rolls-to-hit (by the player), but require a save-to-avoid (by the target). I get that it means it can be a save based on any of a number of abilities, but in the name of fun, it takes away the chance for the spellcaster to hit an armour class. I'd like two changes:

1. Go back to roll-to-hit, for the majority of these spells (if not all). Keep the players active in the game.

2. Make the attack roll a ranged attack not a magic attack (and so based on Dex rather than the Spellcasting stat). This makes better conceptual sense (YMMV) and means casters need more than a single ability (if they pursue this route). Tied to this, I would not object to a feat that let a cater use their casting ability in lieu of dex for such an attack.

I totally agree.

 

[JamesonCourage]

But the narrative conceit that enemies and heroes have plot immunity until sufficient heroic combat has occurred needs to be modeled. One-hit takedown effects, magical or otherwise, are lame.

Respectfully disagree. As these hits happen in fiction, I want them as an option in the game. They shouldn't necessarily be as easy as they have been in the past, but I want the game to let me play things out in an intuitive way where I can expect certain results. Obviously, this is very subjectively, but completely excluding one-hit takedown effects (magical or otherwise) certainly wouldn't be intuitive, to me. Again: subjective, to me, etc. As always, play what you like