Level 20 commoners?

[billd91]

Except that thats not a challenge as discribed by the corebooks. A challenge is defeating a monster, trap or big bad. What your are suggesting there is a RP award at best and not much of one really.

A commoner (which represents a townie or farmer) is not going to gain much XP in his lifetime unless his village is constantly under threat and he fights for his life against an opponent on a regular basis. And if he did, then by simple game mechanics he would have multiclassed into warrior or fighter.

The craftsman (as has been said) is the Expert, and the same applies to that guy. Spending his life sweating away in a smithy is not going to earn him much XP.



Again, thats not a challenge as per the RAW. Its a houserule if you wish to do this way, but I don't think it makes sense to do that. You would have to apply it to PC's and other NPC's as well.

Who really cares where NPCs get their experience? Suffice to say, it make sense for someone who's been farming a long time (20 years or so) and dealing with that sort of life to be hardier and more skilled than some wet-behind-the-ears adolescent. It doesn't matter if the NPCs get XP in ways you don't allow PCs to get XPs, they've different roles in the game and are meant to be used and handled in different ways.

 

[DragonLancer]

Who really cares where NPCs get their experience? Suffice to say, it make sense for someone who's been farming a long time (20 years or so) and dealing with that sort of life to be hardier and more skilled than some wet-behind-the-ears adolescent. It doesn't matter if the NPCs get XP in ways you don't allow PCs to get XPs, they've different roles in the game and are meant to be used and handled in different ways.

Well, obviously people do care or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I just do not think that raising pigs, building a barn or harvesting crops is going to generate XP or at least not enough for a Commoner to rise higher than maybe 4th/5th level.

Obviously different folks and different views, but it seems that people want to have 20th level or Epic level commoners, and I just don't see the point.

 

[Hida Bukkorosu]

i also think that there are probably feats which aren't listed in the book that commoners would have. it doesn't make much sense for Farmer Brown to take Power Attack at 3rd level, for example. In addition to Skill Focus(Profession(Farming)), there would be things like Improved Tomatoes, Greater Improved Tomatoes, etc, that would allow the farmer to grow really big tomatoes and stuff.

 

[Arg-ha Lardgoa]

what about that farmer that survives an attack on his farm of a lone wolf or any such creature that is of a higher cr that 1? He does not have to kill the beast but to complete the objective of fending of the attack and saving his crops/kids/livestock etc.

 

[Steverooo]

Well, obviously people do care or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I just do not think that raising pigs, building a barn or harvesting crops is going to generate XP or at least not enough for a Commoner to rise higher than maybe 4th/5th level.

Well, that's an arbitrary limit, set by you! According to the RAW, CR 1 encounters are enough to get you to 9th level, before you stop gaining any experience from them... So, Commoners can advance all the way to 9D4 HD before CR 1 encounters no longer earn them XP...

So Farmer Brown can "defeat" (as per the RAW, drive off) a CR 1 swarm of rats one month, throw rocks to drive the fox out of the hen house a couple of times the next month, chase a wolf away from the sheep in the following month, and be ahead of the game... even if he never kills any of them! He has "defeated" them, as per the RAW.

Now if some Orcs or Brigands attack the village, as long as he isn't 9th level+, Farmer Brown can pick up some extra XP from that (and yes, the commoners will be a threat to the Orcs or Brigands).

The next summer, Farmer Brown can drive off some snakes from his field for some more XP. If someone tries to steal his sheep, cows, or pigs, and he "defeats" them, then he gets still more XP (as per the RAW).

Now if the PCs survive a shipwreck, make their way across unknown terrain, surviving without supplies, is that adventure worth ZERO XP because they didn't kill anything? No?

Same for the NPC Commoners. Growing their own food is a skill-using Challenge. They, too, are surviving without supplies. They, too, should get XP.

Now when a Commoner gets to ninth level, they will get no XP from CR 1 encounters, so most Commoners won't advance beyond that point without some CR 2 adventures (and a lot more of those). But then, a 9th level Commoner should be more than a match for CR 2 encounters, especially since the Commoner is only counted as CR 8, himself!

So, yes, Farmer Maggot, and Farmer Brown, can eventually reach level 20. They will be old, and either very lucky or very world-wise... but it is possible. By the Rules As Written.

 

[maddman75]

I disagree entirely with the idea that the farmer must defeat creatures to get XP! What utter nonsense! I mean there are times that player characters gain a level without getting into combat, at least in my games. The idea that a farmer must wait around for a wolf or fox to attack his farm before he gets any better at farming is just silly. He's a farmer, he gets XP for farming.

Now how much does he get? Is it per bushel, or percentage of surplus? Does he get a bonus for figuring out how to run the weevils off? I'd say most of us really don't care. We have a detailed system for figuring out XP bonuses for adventurers because the game is called Dungeons & Dragons. Now when someone comes out with Crops & Cows d20, maybe we can get the answers to all these questions.

For me, "Farmers get xp for farming" and "They're as high a level as the DM needs them to be" is good enough for me.

 

[Fingol]

what about that farmer that survives an attack on his farm of a lone wolf or any such creature that is of a higher cr that 1? He does not have to kill the beast but to complete the objective of fending of the attack and saving his crops/kids/livestock etc.

Granted there are those sorts of challenges. But there must be some that are life threatening. If we are going to subject NPCs to random challenges like PCs lets have a look at table 3-2 of the DMG on page 49.

From the table 5% of the challenges are EL 5+.

Lets assume that the commoners have a good support system; at least good enough for 4 strong ones to band together in times of emergencies, so they look a bit like a group and the xp/ CR rules "work". 5% of the time they are going to be faced with an overpowering encounter difficulty.

At 1st or 2nd level this means there is a 5% chance of having to fight/ face something equivalent to a Tendriculos or a Ogre Barbarian, or Vampire (I don't mind if you think of this as a particularly bad drought or sand storm or locust plague....). These I think are fatal encounters.

If we assume that they survive all the other 95% of challenges life chucks at them including the 15% of EL1-4 higher then it can also be expressed as 5% of them dying at every encounter. (This is a really conservative estimate as I think that NPC classes are not very robust and any encounter with a higher EL rating is likely to kill them.)

As there are 13.3 encounters on average per level increment it would mean that about 50% of them survive to go up a level (0.95 survival rate to the power of 13.3 is about 50%)

That means for every commoner that goes up a level another has died.
For every second level commoner you have 1 dead one.
For every third level commoner you have 3 dead ones (one out of four lives)
etc...
For every 20th level commoner or other NPC class that you got out there about 500,000 have died.

As most game worlds have some sort of pyramid with one level 20th person supported by multiple 19th and them in turn supported by more 18th etc... and assuming that this factor is 2 then the pyramid of NPCs alive at each level has 1 x 20th, 2 x 19th, 4 x 18 etc...

This means that to populate that level pyramid accordingly (each level having two more than the previous) with living NPCs some have to die, about 10,000,000 of them. (Roughly 20 levels x 500,000)

As there are about 1,000,000 NPCs in this living level pyramid, it means that every person has to have 10 kids, or each couple 20. This seems a bit much. (Remember that this is a very conservative view)

So the next time you are starting a new character give a thought to the plight of the commoner. If you play one it means that some poor wife out there does not have to have 20 kids.

Of course you could just have commoners fated to become 20th level.

 

[DragonLancer]

Well, that's an arbitrary limit, set by you! According to the RAW, CR 1 encounters are enough to get you to 9th level, before you stop gaining any experience from them... So, Commoners can advance all the way to 9D4 HD before CR 1 encounters no longer earn them XP...

Yes, it was an arbitary limit, but its also one that makes a lot of sense. I'm not saying every commoner is limited to this, but the majority would be unlikely to get any higher.

So Farmer Brown can "defeat" (as per the RAW, drive off) a CR 1 swarm of rats one month, throw rocks to drive the fox out of the hen house a couple of times the next month, chase a wolf away from the sheep in the following month, and be ahead of the game... even if he never kills any of them! He has "defeated" them, as per the RAW.

Now if some Orcs or Brigands attack the village, as long as he isn't 9th level+, Farmer Brown can pick up some extra XP from that (and yes, the commoners will be a threat to the Orcs or Brigands).

The next summer, Farmer Brown can drive off some snakes from his field for some more XP. If someone tries to steal his sheep, cows, or pigs, and he "defeats" them, then he gets still more XP (as per the RAW).

XP for chasing a fox from a hen house? Nil points. Thats not a challenge. Its just something he does that doesn't put his life in danger. If orcs or brigands attack his farmstead/village odds are that he won't survive it. Commoners are not fighters. Should he survive and gain enough XP to level, as I have said, he most likely would not be taking a commoner level but more likely warrior or fighter.

Now if the PCs survive a shipwreck, make their way across unknown terrain, surviving without supplies, is that adventure worth ZERO XP because they didn't kill anything? No?

They gain some RP XP if they roleplayed well. Otherwise no, they wouldn't get XP just for doing it.

Same for the NPC Commoners. Growing their own food is a skill-using Challenge. They, too, are surviving without supplies. They, too, should get XP.

Growing corn and harvesting it every year is NOT worth XP. Sorry, but your clutching at straws here.

I don't want to sound berligerant here, but your are not seeing the big picture. You are assuming everyone in said campaign world is gaining the same XP and they arn't. Your typical commoner is not going to gain 20 levels in his lifetime, far from it. By your own words the best they will probably reach without a lot of hardship and trouble is 9th, and even then thats after a long life of excitment.

I'm not saying that you are not making some good points, but I can't agree with the idea that a commoner will reach such high levels.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

XP for chasing a fox from a hen house? Nil points. Thats not a challenge. Its just something he does that doesn't put his life in danger.

How is it not a challenge? Why must one put their life in danger? The DMG specifically mentions giving XP for other things outside of just combat. Completely a quest falls into that, and while chasing off a fox may not be a quest in the same way that adventurers killing Orcs is, but his life is still very dependent on it. Fox kills hens --> Farmer loses money and/or food and could die. Danger is not a requirement for overcoming a challenge. If it was, RP encounters wouldn't give a thing.

They gain some RP XP if they roleplayed well. Otherwise no, they wouldn't get XP just for doing it.

They wouldn't get any XP for escaping a hazardous situation? Yes, D&D at its roots is kill/get look/repeat, but there's still more to it than just that. The PCs have survived a shipwreck and gotten off an island and they get no XP? Do you give XP for PCs talking their way out of fights? Or running away? Because the DMG just says you have to overcome the challenge, not kill everything.

 

[Staffan]

I just do not think that raising pigs, building a barn or harvesting crops is going to generate XP or at least not enough for a Commoner to rise higher than maybe 4th/5th level.

Well, most farmers won't advance much further than that, if even that high. However, there are those who do more than that - they expand their holdings through marrying off their family, beat back raids by orcs, and so on. Not every commoner, but it's possible for them.

Granted there are those sorts of challenges. But there must be some that are life threatening. If we are going to subject NPCs to random challenges like PCs lets have a look at table 3-2 of the DMG on page 49.

From the table 5% of the challenges are EL 5+.

That's why PCs advance a whole lot faster than commoners. In many campaigns, a PC can be 5th level a month or two after his first adventure. For a commoner, who doesn't go out of his way to do dangerous stuff, it's nowhere near that dangerous.

Also, I subscribe to Keith Baker's theory of classes and levels - not everyone has the potential to reach any level, or to take any class. Most people top out as a level 3 commoner or something like that. PCs are exceptional in that fashion, which is why they're the ones who get called upon to solve problems.