Level 20 commoners?

[Boddynock]

I notice a lot of people think that commoners would be the craftsmen and other skilled workers of the world. I always though that's what experts were for. I picture commoners as farmers and unskilled laborers. If that's not the case, what exactly are experts?

The thing that you have to remember is that farmers are extremely skilled in what they do. Nobody who's stupid is going to make a go of it on a farm! In fact, you have to be not only skilled but also courageous!

That being the case, and given that there is an argument for allowing XP for crafting, professional actions and meeting the challenges of a particular lifestyle, then 20th level Commoners are probably the ones who own their own farms, have raised a family successfully, have expanded their holdings over the years ... and, yes, have taken part in militia efforts to beat off the occasional goblin or orc attack. They will be the solid citizens, the matriarchs and patriarchs of their community - and while they may not be community leaders ("Huh, never had the time for those sorts of shennanigans!"), they will certainly be of high standing amongst their neighbours.

"Nock

 

[Stone Angel]

There was an old Computer game called.....Hero something .....The name evades me at the moment but it was made by Sierra They had like five of them in the series. You could choose between being a Thief, Warrior, Wizard. You only got better at what you did. You wanted to get stronger you did push ups and stuff, fighting you went out and fought, casting spells you studied and cast spells. I tried to implement something like this but without a definitve system I found it frustrating.

As for commoners gaining exp. There was a thread a while back about how much they would gain in a year and their level rate. I am too tired to hunt for it but will tommorrow. Anyway the commoner's challenge might be saving his cattle from a predator, making a successful harvest during a drought or flood. Fixing the barn roof after a leak. Getting a large order of swords for the millitary done in time, ect.

The Seraph of Earth and Stone

 

[painandgreed]

Actually, painandgreed is simply failing to connect some of the dots in how he is making his point.

The "challenge" is surviving (and maybe even advancing a little) in a quasi-medieval society. The means of overcoming this challenge is by employing skills to earn a living.

Instead of slaying monsters, the Blacksmith manages to make enough money to feed his children. <DING !>1 CR 5 challenge overcome.

This just happens to be exactly what Sean K. Reynolds was saying in the afore-mentioned article on his web site; that Commoners, Experts, etc., advance by facing approximately 1 CR1 challenge per month in the course of their lives. Making rent payments on the shop, saving some of the crop from locusts, etc., is the type of challenge they face.

Ya, pretty much. Any deeper than that and we'd be quibbling about systems. Living on a farm or being a village blacksmith may be a CR 1 or so. Pretty soon, most commoners aren't going to get any more XP from such things because they're too high a level. Only the few with the opportunity to work on greater things will continue to raise in level. There may be 20th level commoners (about four per metropolis as per the DMG) but they are still few and far between as that's 1 per every 6,000 commoners where a 20th level fighter is more like 1 out of 65 or so fighers (as per Table 5-2, DMG p.137). Include the rest of the kingdom and it could easily be more like 1 per every 250,000 for commoners and 1 per 1,500 for fighters.

 

[Arkhandus]

Aye, as Darkness points out, by the RAW, a high-level member of an NPC class will have a CR of only their level -1, or their level -2 per 10 levels beyond 11th for epic members of an NPC class (per the Epic Level Handbook), which would result in obscene amounts of treasure and experience points for PCs of even a fraction of that level, if they were to defeat the epic commoner/expert/aristocrat/warrior/adept. And really, even a commoner 30 is no match for a bard 15. So the CR for folks with only NPC classes should really be more like simply 1/2 their total level in NPC classes (probably 3/4 their level in warrior and adept). NPCs don't get as much wealth per level as a PC (only about 1/3 what PC gets, at upper levels), don't get any special class features (except the adept's meager spells), tend to have low ability scores and low hit points (at least for non-elite NPCs and all NPC classes), and have to rely on magic items (which they have comparatively few of) to negate whatever tricks a PC could pull. A PC bard has various spells to pump themselves up and disable or disorient their foes, or at least turn their foes against eachother, and has similar (maybe slightly better) attack bonuses/ability scores (after considering magic items and spells), and is only slightly to moderately disadvantaged in Hit Points compared to a much-higher-level commoner. Using Spring Attack or ranged combat feats, the bard could easily whittle away the commoner, using healing spells and superior speed (through Expeditious Retreat if nothing else) to survive long enough against the high-level-commoner's moderately superior magic weaponry/strength score/whatever. A PC fighter, barbarian, wizard, druid, or something could fairly easily defeat an NPC commoner of twice their level (assuming the NPC commoner has appropriate wealth as such, and not the wealth of a PC; wealth = more/better magic items in D&D, and they make up the majority of a character's power at high levels).

 

[Sado]

There was an old Computer game called.....Hero something .....The name evades me at the moment but it was made by Sierra They had like five of them in the series. You could choose between being a Thief, Warrior, Wizard. You only got better at what you did. You wanted to get stronger you did push ups and stuff, fighting you went out and fought, casting spells you studied and cast spells. I tried to implement something like this but without a definitve system I found it frustrating.

Quest for Glory?

 

[Joker]

A 20th level commoner could have been a conscript 67-68 times. He knew he was gonna get conscripted again and again but he tried to fool himself by taking commoner levels when he leveled up instead of something that would have been more useful on the battlefield.

 

[Stone Angel]

Quest for Glory was indeed the name thank you Joker.

The Seraph of Earth and Stone

 

[Joker]

Quest for Glory was indeed the name thank you Joker.

The Seraph of Earth and Stone

Don't mention it. But it wasn't me that told you .

 

[TheAuldGrump]

The "challenge" is surviving (and maybe even advancing a little) in a quasi-medieval society. The means of overcoming this challenge is by employing skills to earn a living.

Instead of slaying monsters, the Blacksmith manages to make enough money to feed his children. <DING !>1 CR 5 challenge overcome.

This just happens to be exactly what Sean K. Reynolds was saying in the afore-mentioned article on his web site; that Commoners, Experts, etc., advance by facing approximately 1 CR1 challenge per month in the course of their lives. Making rent payments on the shop, saving some of the crop from locusts, etc., is the type of challenge they face.

And corespondingly the worse conditions are the greater the challenge. For a fifth level farmer getting in a good harvest in an average year is no experience at all, he can 'take 10' and get the job done. With a drought things get dicier, he has to rise to the challenge.

And the conditions he faces on a regular basis plays a part, if he is working the taiga it is a far different story than if he is working a river valley. Conditions are worse, he faces greater challenges on a regular basis, so is likely to be 'higher level'.

The Auld Grump, I made a 20th level farmer - he was outstanding in his field.

 

[Turanil]

I made a 20th level farmer - he was outstanding in his field.

LOL!