Level 20 commoners?

[painandgreed]

If going by the RAW, you're going to end up with some 20th level commoners. How do I explain this? I give out XP for use of skills. If you don't take ten then use of skill and the money made by the skill use can be compared to the amount of treasure normally associated with CRs and worked backward. If the commoner has earned 300 GP, then they must have completed a CR1. Most commoners, worrying about their life and limb, don't risk taking chances with their skills and take 10, excluding them from any form of XP. Those that are highly skilled and adventurous take their rolls and end up pushing their skill set and gaining XP. As they get better they get better jobs that pay more and are equally much more challenging. Your 20th level commoner is somebody who has probably specialized in one or two skills and is the best in the kingdom if not the world for their skill. These would be the artisans and craftsmen that altough of commoner birth are skilled enough that even adventurers and royalty go to them to have masterworks created. The best sculpture in the kingdom. The best armorsmith. The richest merchant. Perhaps the best sailor on the seas.

 

[DragonLancer]

Except that you don't gain XP for crafting, working, nor gaining wealth. So we're back to Commoners who are not earnign much XP.

 

[Jdvn1]

Except that you don't gain XP for crafting, working, nor gaining wealth. So we're back to Commoners who are not earnign much XP.

Well, y'know, some Commoners harvest wheat. Others harvest Shambling Mounds.

To each his own.

 

[Umbra]

What is a normal life for a commoner in each culture/region/town of your world?

Does the commoner live in a society where they are part of a militia & where warfare happens on a regular basis? In wilderness areas where hunting and being hunted may be common? How about in a city where keeping the local thieves guild happy and off your back is a priority? A region regularly hit with natural disasters? Or does the commoner live in a civilised agricultural belt far from dangers, etc?

The lives of some commoners may be such they would gain more experience than 'common' commoners. Only a few adventurers may gain 20 levels. Only a few commoners would too. I don't see a problem with it if they are a rarity.

You may want to consider that level 20 commoners may be the leaders of their local communities or at least very well respected. Gaffer Gamgee was the recognised expert on potatoes and other roots all around Hobbiton and Bywater.

 

[Sado]

These would be the artisans and craftsmen that altough of commoner birth are skilled enough that even adventurers and royalty go to them to have masterworks created. The best sculpture in the kingdom. The best armorsmith. The richest merchant. Perhaps the best sailor on the seas.

I notice a lot of people think that commoners would be the craftsmen and other skilled workers of the world. I always though that's what experts were for. I picture commoners as farmers and unskilled laborers. If that's not the case, what exactly are experts?

 

[FireLance]

Just a small question why would a person, assuming that they had no choice but to become a first level commoner (by birth, parental training, etc...) take another level in it? Why not pick any other class?

Because classes are just a mechanical representation of a character's abilities and have nothing to do with background, social station or beliefs?

Not every noble is an Aristocrat. Not every Barbarian comes from an uncivilized region. The mousy librarian who helps her fellow party members fight better by delivering a lecture about the creatures they are facing could be a Bard using Inspire Courage.

Why do some characters start out as Commoners? Perhaps they didn't have the opportunity to get the proper training to be anything else. Perhaps they were just lazy. Why do they continue advancing as Commoners? For exactly the same reasons. Being a Warrior or a Fighter means hours of weapons practice. Being an Expert or a Wizard is a lot of hard work. Perhaps the secrets of Druidic lore are only taught to a few, and you need to be born with Sorcerous talent. Barring a few specialized campaigns, PCs are always the exception. They have the right combination of natural talent, determination and opportunity to pick any class they want (within the framework of the rules and the campaign, of course).

So, who's a 20th-level Commoner? The determined and hardworking member of a group that is despised by the rest of society. He has been discriminated against, had doors slammed in his face and had opportunities denied him all his life, so he has never had a chance to learn to be anything more. The extremely lazy and only halfway competent son of a Baron. He "adventures" frequently, but never picks up any useful skills and only survives because his retainers do their best to protect him. The loyal retainer who accompanies his master on an epic quest. He lacks the ambition to be anything more than a cook or a gardener, so he never develops his talents in other areas.

 

[Darkness]

Right, let's not hijack this thread with an NPC class gear debate.

Thus, let's put this stuff in sblocks:

Jdvn1 -[sblock]

But maybe not way less of a challenge than a Bard.

Then again, maybe yes. Actually, certainly yes. Stat it up. You'll see.

And, anyway, 20 levels in a class rarely stacks up to a CR 20 creature. Or even a CR 19 creature.

Yeah. The ELH suggests lowering the CRs for NPCs. It's way worse with NPC class characters, though.

But the CR system works in a funny way, doesn't it?

Yep, absolutely.

I wouldn't say that the level - 1 thing is accurate, because I've never tested it.

I have. It's so far off it isn't even funny - except at the lowest levels.

But 1/2? You think a Com20 is at a disadvantage against a Ftr10? Or a Pal10?

That's not how CR works. Instead, you have to consider what is more dangerous to a level 10 party of four - a Com20 or a Ftr10.

If they're similarly equipped, the Fighter is the bigger threat (see below). Of course, if you give the Com20 the gear of a CR 19 character, he'll be stronger than he otherwise would be. But the same goes for the Fighter.

Com20 vs. Ftr10

Com20 gets nonelite stats. (Otherwise, +1 CR.) +5 points for level
Ftr10 gets elite stats. +2 points for level

HD
Com20: 20d4 (50 hp; would be 51 if he was an elite character)
Ftr10: 10d10, maximized at first level (59 hp)
High Con is a bigger advantage for the Com, as he gets more bonus hp from it.

BAB: the same

SV
Com 20: all +6
Ftr10: Fort +7, others +3

Skills
kinda irrelevant, though the Ftr gets Intimidate, which might come in handy

Feats
Com20: 7
Ftr10: 4 + 6 bonus = 10 feats total

WP/AP
Com20: one simple weapon P, no AP
Ftr10: All that isn't Exotic


I think you can see that it's close. The Fighter has a certain advantage, though. 1/2 is probably still slightly too high. 40-45% might be closer to the truth.

If we give this guy 170,000 gp (as for a CR 19 character), he's better off. I'd call the above about CR 9. Tons of gear would make it a 12, maybe. Unfortunately, 170,000 gp in gear is much too high a reward for a level 12 party so I wouldn't recommend it.
Even if it was a 14 or something (which it isn't), the reward is silly high.

In conclusion, if you apply the sparse DMG guidelines for NPC class character CR without thinking, you end up with a 'challenge' the PCs simply walk over.
If you reduce the CR without reducing the gear as well, the risk might be appropriate but the reward will be anything but; it will be much too high for the PCs' level.[/sblock]

 

[FireLance]

I notice a lot of people think that commoners would be the craftsmen and other skilled workers of the world. I always though that's what experts were for. I picture commoners as farmers and unskilled laborers. If that's not the case, what exactly are experts?

People with the dedication, opportunity and training to be more than just commoners (see above post).

 

[Ace]

Just a small question why would a person, assuming that they had no choice but to become a first level commoner (by birth, parental training, etc...) take another level in it? Why not pick any other class?

If you want combat useless NPCs with high skills why not just hike their skills up arbitrarily? Which is just as arbitrary as creating 20th level commoners....

Once you have got 20th level commoners in your world what then? What are you gonna do with them? Have you got an evil group you are DMing for that you want to surprise the next time they ride into the village and demand free beer and loving?

Look at commoners as folks who don't have a lot of opportunities in life-- I don't use Adepts but this is how I see the NPC classes

Commoners are folks like shopgirls and farmers who never leave home-- heck slaves too

Warriors are conscript soldiers and folks in less professional armies (as vs those with great potential like Fighters)

Experts are nearly PC level as a class -- they are the elite of a community that rarely adventure -- Lawyers, Hunters, Sailors but they may face challenges but rarely adventures per se --

Aristocrats are the rich

Commoners IMC are usually 3rd level or so --- They face some challenges in life but mostly day to day ones -- hence they never get to be high level

Sometimes a commoner will have an event filled life and reach high level without changing the way he lives --

A 20th level farmer (commoner) might be the guy who survived the orc war, the dark lord and the dark years -- still raising crops and never adventuring -- he is probably 80+ and roughly as tough as a 5th level fighter , at least with simple weapons and a salavaged +1 mail coat from some forgotten battle

Most of the villagers are broeken down as

1st -- youngsters almost still apprentices

2nd -4th Journeymen -- this is most of the village -- they will probably top out at 4th level -- BAB +2 -- typical farmers don't have skill focus -- they are more likely something like

Human L3

10 in all stats

Endurance (bonus)

Toughness l1

Simple Weapons

skills at 6 ---

Hp 11

nothing special


5th + These are the skilled and repected farmers -- compotent at what they do (skill 12+ ) able to perform master level works under pressure

 

[Jdvn1]

Right, let's not hijack this thread with an NPC class gear debate.

Good point.

[sblock]

Yeah. The ELH suggests lowering the CRs for NPCs. It's way worse with NPC class characters, though.

Hm, didn't know that. Could I have a page number? Oh, and also for your previous 'Commoners can't be Epic' comment.

That's not how CR works. Instead, you have to consider what is more dangerous to a level 10 party of four - a Com20 or a Ftr10.

Well, but it's not even as clear-cut as that. A Ftr20 is technically CR 20. But he doesn't compare to a CR 20 dragon, for example. The dragon is much more dangerous. I think the comparison to an ogre is unfair for the same reason.

If they're similarly equipped, the Fighter is the bigger threat (see below). Of course, if you give the Com20 the gear of a CR 19 character, he'll be stronger than he otherwise would be. But the same goes for the Fighter.

Also technically, gear is determined by level, not CR.

Com20 vs. Ftr10

Com20 gets nonelite stats. (Otherwise, +1 CR.) +5 points for level
Ftr10 gets elite stats. +2 points for level

The -1 CR for a NPC class is a result of the class, not the stats. They should get even stats.

HD
Com20: 20d4 (50 hp; would be 51 if he was an elite character)
Ftr10: 10d10, maximized at first level (59 hp)
High Con is a bigger advantage for the Com, as he gets more bonus hp from it.

Since it looks like you're making a fighting-oriented build, I think it'd be safe to assume the better stats would be the physical stats, giving the Com20 an advantage.

BAB: the same

SV
Com 20: all +6
Ftr10: Fort +7, others +3

Skills
kinda irrelevant, though the Ftr gets Intimidate, which might come in handy

I think the Com has the advantage in the save department. And, I'd say, in the skills department. The Com can have at least 11 ranks in any possibly useful skill. The Fighter has one useful skill that could be a 13. Not that I think it'd really matter in a one-on-one battle.

Feats
Com20: 7
Ftr10: 4 + 6 bonus = 10 feats total

WP/AP
Com20: one simple weapon P, no AP
Ftr10: All that isn't Exotic

Yeah, ouch. Although the feat discrepancy is made up with magic items. And I don't think there's a huge power difference between simple and martial weapons. The difference between a d6 and a d8 of damage is an average of 1. That's made up in magic items.

I think you can see that it's close. The Fighter has a certain advantage, though. 1/2 is probably still slightly too high. 40-45% might be closer to the truth.

At this point, yeah.

If we give this guy 170,000 gp (as for a CR 19 character), he's better off. I'd call the above about CR 9. Tons of gear would make it a 12, maybe. Unfortunately, 170,000 gp in gear is much too high a reward for a level 12 party so I wouldn't recommend it.
Even if it was a 14 or something (which it isn't), the reward is silly high.

Well, again, gold is by level not CR. 220k gp is a monster of a difference from 16k gp. I dont' think it's even close now. Then again, I also think it's magic items that make the character. The Fighter can afford nothing better than a +2 weapon and a +2 armor. It's not even close anymore.

In conclusion, if you apply the sparse DMG guidelines for NPC class character CR without thinking, you end up with a 'challenge' the PCs simply walk over.
If you reduce the CR without reducing the gear as well, the risk might be appropriate but the reward will be anything but; it will be much too high for the PCs' level.

I didn't say it'd be a smart encounter, I was only referring to the power balance. Also, I was originally taking it from the idea, "Which would make a strong character for me to play?" I think a Com20 in a game of 12th level characters would be overly powerful. At least, until everyone gained a few levels to catch up.

[/sblock]