D&D 5E Level 20, no class higher than 12 (edited!)

[TwoSix]

My last multiclass character was Ranger 8/ Druid (stars) 10 when we ended the campaign. I was using Dragon aspect to make it almost impossible to fail a concentration roll. My main spell was Summon Beastial Spirit. Between that and my own three attacks per round I was dealing out a lot of damage.

Yea, I think you could do some fun Druid combos. Ranger/druid, barb/druid, even the mentioned pally/druid.

 

[ezo]

The 2024 moon druid had a feature that gives them Wis mod to concentration checks while wild shaped.

Oh, so, then you cheated?

Since the thread is 2014, shame, shame, shame!

 

[TwoSix]

Oh, so, then you cheated?

Since the thread is 2014, shame, shame, shame!

I run a very ecumenical game.

 

[ECMO3]

I'm thinking of doing a relatively short (12-15 sessions) level 20 game for one of my groups. This game would have the fairly large caveat that the PCs could not go above level 10 in any one class; in other words, everyone PC would have to be multiclassed.

I'm adding one house rule that if a character gets extra attack a 2nd time (or more), they get an additional feat instead.

The focus will be progressing by finding magical items and quest rewards over leveling.

What sort of character would you find interesting in this scenario? Are there any obvious red flags I'm not seeing?

The extra attack feat could cause problems IMO and will gimp non-casters even more than they already are gimped in 5E. If I was powergaming, a Bladesinger 8, Swords Bard 7, Battle Smith Artificer 5 would just be way OP. That character would have martial weapons, a fighting style, expertise, Jack of AT, a pet, the best AC in the game and the best version of extra attack in the game along with 6 ASIs and 9th level spell slots.

The thing is even if you make that character take feats and not ASIs, they can take ASIs with their regular feats. Multiclassing already outruns single class characters even with the lost ASIs.

Here are a handful of characters I have played to level 20 RAW that were really cool and fun I thought and fell within these guidelines. They are all fairly powerful too. A link to some of them are below, level 1 class listed first:

Drow Eldritch Knight 12/Redemption Paladin 6/Undead Warlock 2

Kobold Swashbuckler 9/Whispers Bard 5/Ranger 1/ Chain Hexblade 5

Halfling Arcane Trickster 11/Paladin 2/Chain Hexblade 6/Bard 1

Dragonborn Shadow Sorcerer 1/Fey Wanderer 12/Glamor Bard 6/Monk 1 (this character is primarily a charm and fear-based controller with Dragon Fear Feat and Cause Fear through Shadow Touched and also the best face with 14 charisma, expertise and adding +5 to charisma checks with a 20 Wisdom).

Asmodeus Tiefling Eldritch Knight 12/Swords Bard 4/ Undead Warlock 4


Here are two of those:

D&D Beyond Character Sheet

The World's most intelligent Dungeons and Dragons Character Sheet.

www.dndbeyond.com

D&D Beyond Character Sheet

The World's most intelligent Dungeons and Dragons Character Sheet.

www.dndbeyond.com

 

[Horwath]

The extra attack feat could cause problems IMO and will gimp non-casters even more than they already are gimped in 5E. If I was powergaming, a Bladesinger 8, Swords Bard 7, Battle Smith Artificer 5 would just be way OP. That character would have martial weapons, a fighting style, expertise, Jack of AT, a pet, the best AC in the game and the best version of extra attack in the game along with 6 ASIs and 9th level spell slots.

The thing is even if you make that character take feats and not ASIs, they can take ASIs with their regular feats. Multiclassing already outruns single class characters even with the lost ASIs.

wow, extra feat over single class bladesinger 20?

and 9th level spell slots do not mean much when your highest level spell is 4th.
unless you mean to abuse CME, no much use of it.
and pet is complete trash at 20th level, best armor does not stack with bladesinging, still limited to light armor.

can you make a versatile character this way. 100% yes. and it would be fun to play.
Is it more powerful than 20th level bladesinger? No.



and replacing extra attack with a feat is a decent trade.

you need to ask a question?

would you spend a feat to get Extra attack.

yes!

even a "full" feat from 2014, without +1 ASI?

yes, 100%

it almost doubles your DPS, no feature does that.

even would spend a full feat at 12th level for fighters extra-extra attack, even if then it only increases your DPS by 50%.

maybe a choice between epic boon and 20th level fighter extra-extra-extra attack is a choice to be made?
does +33% DPS performs better than another epic boon?

extra attack is the most powerful feature in the game, outside high level spells and maybe paladins aura.

 

[TwoSix]

The extra attack feat could cause problems IMO and will gimp non-casters even more than they already are gimped in 5E. If I was powergaming, a Bladesinger 8, Swords Bard 7, Battle Smith Artificer 5 would just be way OP. That character would have martial weapons, a fighting style, expertise, Jack of AT, a pet, the best AC in the game and the best version of extra attack in the game along with 6 ASIs and 9th level spell slots.

That's OK. This is a small experiment for one group that will maybe last a year to 18 months. If everyone chooses casters, that's fine.

BS 8/Sw B 7/BS Art 5 is plenty powerful even without 2 extra feats/ASIs, I'm not concerned 2 extra feats will break an already strong build. I'm much more concerned with people feeling bad they took a feature (Extra Attack on a second class) that doesn't do anything.

For these kind of experiments, balance falls on me as the DM. And balance is generally easy enough to approximate with targeted magic items for underperformers.

Drow Eldritch Knight 12/Redemption Paladin 6/Undead Warlock 2

Kobold Swashbuckler 9/Whispers Bard 5/Ranger 1/Hexblade 5

Halfling Arcane Trickster 11/Paladin 2/Hexblade 6/Bard 1

Dragonborn Shadow Sorcerer 1/Fey Wanderer 12/Glamor Bard 6/Monk 1 (this character is primarily a charm and fear-based controller with Dragon Fear Feat and Cause Fear through Shadow Touched and also the best face with 14 charisma, expertise and adding +5 to charisma checks with a 20 Wisdom).

Asmodeus Tiefling Eldritch Knight 12/Swords Bard 4/ Undead Warlock 4


Here are two of those:

D&D Beyond Character Sheet

The World's most intelligent Dungeons and Dragons Character Sheet.

www.dndbeyond.com

D&D Beyond Character Sheet

The World's most intelligent Dungeons and Dragons Character Sheet.

www.dndbeyond.com

Very cool builds! Might borrow them for some NPCs.

 

[TwoSix]

wow, extra feat over single class bladesinger 20?

even would spend a full feat at 12th level for fighters extra-extra attack, even if then it only increases your DPS by 50%.

maybe a choice between epic boon and 20th level fighter extra-extra-extra attack is a choice to be made?
does +33% DPS performs better than another epic boon?

Realistically, if there was a feat chain that opened up Extra Attack(2) and Extra Attack(3) (and a hypothetical Extra Attack(4)), pretty much every weapon-user would pursue it.

 

[Horwath]

Realistically, if there was a feat chain that opened up Extra Attack(2) and Extra Attack(3) (and a hypothetical Extra Attack(4)), pretty much every weapon-user would pursue it.

maybe martials should get a feat slot instead of Extra attack slots so they can make their choice for themselves

 

[J-H]

Fighter 12/War Wizard 8 (for 2 ASIs) or Figher 11/War Wizard 9 (for 5th level spells known). You get 3 attacks per round (and maybe a 4th if you dual wield, PAM, etc.), and a good amount of ASIs/feats. You know spells up to 4th level, so you can cast Dimension Door and move yourself anywhere along with a passenger. You have spell slots up to 6th level, so you're pretty good at landing Dispels or Counterspells, or simply an upcast Fireball.

You can fight while under the influence of Greater Invisibility or Haste while concentrating on it yourself, cast Shield or Absorb Elements, and you have cantrips and Magic Missiles for a ranged weapon.

You have the best no-magic AC (full plate & potentially shield), and War Wizard gives you a free +2 to AC or +4 to a save as a reaction all day long, just limiting you to "only cantrips" the following turn.
Whether you'll want to bladetrip or just attack depends on magic item availability.

 

[Horwath]

Fighter 12/War Wizard 8 (for 2 ASIs) or Figher 11/War Wizard 9 (for 5th level spells known). You get 3 attacks per round (and maybe a 4th if you dual wield, PAM, etc.), and a good amount of ASIs/feats. You know spells up to 4th level, so you can cast Dimension Door and move yourself anywhere along with a passenger. You have spell slots up to 6th level, so you're pretty good at landing Dispels or Counterspells, or simply an upcast Fireball.

You can fight while under the influence of Greater Invisibility or Haste while concentrating on it yourself, cast Shield or Absorb Elements, and you have cantrips and Magic Missiles for a ranged weapon.

You have the best no-magic AC (full plate & potentially shield), and War Wizard gives you a free +2 to AC or +4 to a save as a reaction all day long, just limiting you to "only cantrips" the following turn.
Whether you'll want to bladetrip or just attack depends on magic item availability.

only choice is:

3 attacks + 5th level spells
or
2 attacks + 6th level spells