Level 3 PCs vs. Level 8 Monster?

[Tazawa]

I would convert the level 8 skirmisher to a level 4 elite skirmisher, like so:

Ogre Skirmisher Level 4 Elite Skirmisher
Large natural humanoid XP 350
Initiative +6 Senses Perception +2
HP 114; Bloodied 57
AC 20; Fortitude 19, Reflex 18, Will 14
Saving Throws +2
Speed 8
Action Points 1
M Club (Standard, at-will) Weapon
Reach 2; +9 vs Armor Class; 1d6+4 damage.
R Javelin (Standard, at-will) Weapon
Ranged 10/20; +9 vs Armor Class; 1d6+4 damage.
m Hurling Charge (Standard, recharge 4, 5, 6) Weapon
The ogre skirmisher makes a javelin attack followed by a charge attack.
Skirmish +1d6
If, on its turn, the ogre skirmisher ends its move at least 4 squares away from its starting point, it deals an extra 1d6 damage on it attacks until the start of its next turn.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Str 16 (+5) Dex 15 (+4) Wis 11 (+2)
Con 17 (+5) Int 4 (-1) Cha 6 (+0)
Equipment: club, hide armor, javelin x6.

This version has the same XP value, slightly more hit points, but lower defenses and damage potential. His encounter power has also been changed to a recharge power.

 

[darkadelphia]

I agree with Tazawa. I used a level 8 Ogre against level 3 PCs and it went alright, but it just took too long to kill the darned thing and it had nothing interesting to do. Elites>high level monsters.

 

[Rel]

I agree with Tazawa. I used a level 8 Ogre against level 3 PCs and it went alright, but it just took too long to kill the darned thing and it had nothing interesting to do. Elites>high level monsters.

This could potentially be a problem. I like the idea that once in a while the Ogre picks up a PC and throws them. Possible places for them to land:

Against the side of a cliff
OVER a cliff
Down a pit
Into a boiling stew pot
Lava (Don't use this one unless you want a possible TPK )

 

[Wik]

Yeah, the problem with brutes as the "big boss" is that they're pretty limited in what they can do (by design). Personally, though, a level 8 vs. a level 3 party should be fine - I do it all the time. (Right now, my level 5 PCs are fighting level 10 creatures, no problem).

I'd include an "out" though; if you misjudge the encounter, have a way to turn the fight in the PCs' favour without it being obvious. There are the usual ways (the enemies retreat, allies show up, or the battlefield changes somehow), but I'd go for one that seems bad... have a bunch of minions show up.

The minions show up, and charge the PCs. The PCs have to defend against the minions, but while this is going on, the main bad guys are kept at a distance (and are now open targets for any ranged attackers in your group). This gives your group a breather, and maybe a chance to spend their second winds without instantly losing their gained hit points to enemy attacks.

Another option would be to delevel the ogre (which I've done, and it works fine), and then add a class to it - Barbarian springs to mind. This will make the ogre more interesting in combat, and it'll still be tough... though with a bit more crunch than we usually see in Brutes. If you make the ogre a striker that needs combat advantage, then you have a great encounter.... once the PCs can kill the soldiers, your elite won't be too much of a problem.

 

[Eldorian]

I would convert the level 8 skirmisher to a level 4 elite skirmisher, like so:

Ogre Skirmisher Level 4 Elite Skirmisher
Large natural humanoid XP 350
Initiative +6 Senses Perception +2
HP 114; Bloodied 57
AC 20; Fortitude 19, Reflex 18, Will 14
Saving Throws +2
Speed 8
Action Points 1
M Club (Standard, at-will) Weapon
Reach 2; +9 vs Armor Class; 1d6+4 damage.
R Javelin (Standard, at-will) Weapon
Ranged 10/20; +9 vs Armor Class; 1d6+4 damage.
m Hurling Charge (Standard, recharge 4, 5, 6) Weapon
The ogre skirmisher makes a javelin attack followed by a charge attack.
Skirmish +1d6
If, on its turn, the ogre skirmisher ends its move at least 4 squares away from its starting point, it deals an extra 1d6 damage on it attacks until the start of its next turn.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Str 16 (+5) Dex 15 (+4) Wis 11 (+2)
Con 17 (+5) Int 4 (-1) Cha 6 (+0)
Equipment: club, hide armor, javelin x6.

This version has the same XP value, slightly more hit points, but lower defenses and damage potential. His encounter power has also been changed to a recharge power.

This is exactly what you should do. A DM should read pages 184 and 185 of the DMG, and understand how to change a monster's level and status as minion, normal, or elite.

I'll tell you, as a player, fighting higher level monster is frustrating as hell cause you can't hit em. If you want to use a big powerful monster, use an elite or solo of the appropriate level. Also, don't use low level monsters, use minions. Low level monsters are just boring to fight because they don't offer a threat due to the low bonus to attack.

 

[Wik]

This is exactly what you should do. A DM should read pages 184 and 185 of the DMG, and understand how to change a monster's level and status as minion, normal, or elite.

I'll tell you, as a player, fighting higher level monster is frustrating as hell cause you can't hit em. If you want to use a big powerful monster, use an elite or solo of the appropriate level. Also, don't use low level monsters, use minions. Low level monsters are just boring to fight because they don't offer a threat due to the low bonus to attack.

Higher level monsters just force the group to work together to get those bonuses - using combat advantage, leader abilities, and the like. We've had few problems with higher level monsters, but your experiences can vary, and all that jazz.

That being said, higher level brutes should be pretty easy to hit in any case.

 

[Eldorian]

Higher level monsters just force the group to work together to get those bonuses - using combat advantage, leader abilities, and the like. We've had few problems with higher level monsters, but your experiences can vary, and all that jazz.

Smart players work together to get those bonuses even against lower level monsters. DMs interested in challenging their players also make their monsters use tactics to advantage, such as the monster using cover or choke points to avoid such bonuses.

That being said, higher level brutes should be pretty easy to hit in any case.

The monster in question is a skirmisher, though the type does matter, as higher level soldiers are REALLY annoying to fight.

Seriously, guys, make use of the elite and solo classifications. The game really benefits from them. For example, saves are static, but elites and solos gain a bonus, so your big ogre won't be weakened the whole fight because he doesn't have a bonus to saves.

 

[Chris Knapp]

Thanks for all the replies! The scenario is that 2 x level 2 soldiers are guarding a bridge with an ogre to do the dirty work. The soldiers will sit back and unleash the ogre on the party. There are opportunities for the PC to slide the ogre off the bridge into a raging river below (my PC's seem pretty good at this kind of stuff.) Once the ogre is bloodied, the soldiers attack. High HP aren't a problem as we are striker heavy. I was just worried about the fact that ogre's are level 8 at all. My thoughts on making it a level 3 or 4 solo are that it get AP's which can turn the battle against my PC's quick and the damage of a solo is usually higher than the standard level 8 ogre.

The fight isn't supposed to be that hard. Just a hint of whats to come should they try to cross the bridge. I just wanted to use an ogre as my campaign setting makes heavy use of them.

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

This could potentially be a problem. I like the idea that once in a while the Ogre picks up a PC and throws them. Possible places for them to land:

Against the side of a cliff
OVER a cliff
Down a pit
Into a boiling stew pot
Lava (Don't use this one unless you want a possible TPK )

Hey, Rel, are there any rules for lava? I can't seem to find any?

 

[chaotix42]

The scenario is *snip*

If you de-level the ogre down to 5th and make him an elite/solo with a few extra quirks you're going to have a pretty good, memorable encounter IMO. If you just take the stock 8th level ogre skirmisher, depending on the sway of the fight, it might just devolve into a slugfest. He'll use his hurling charge, and then in subsequent rounds do his best to move and get skirmish damage. With a good defender, and only two other low-level monsters the battle could become very predictable or grindy, depending on how the dice roll.

The PCs could also send him over the edge early. Will that kill the ogre, or just hurt him and force him to climb back up? I think that with the right environment you can make this work either way. If you want it be set piece, make a solo ogre. If you want it be quick but memorable pit them against the 8th level ogre and give them some quick way of finishing him off that'll leave them feeling satisfied.