D&D 5E (2014) Level 6+ bladesingers: what’s your best melee options?

[Prebata]

The d6 HD can be improved with the Tough feat (making them almost equal to fighters in hp), and paired with optimized AC they can be quite tanky.

In game we've found that most dual-wielding theorycrafts are put at the road side, since the bonus action economy rarely made it more practical than having a cantrip and one attack paired with misty step or even activating bladesong to begin with.

 

[Blue]

To make a less offhand remark, I think the strength of Bladesingers is the ability to contribute to a parties combat strength AFTER all of their spells are expended. Before that point, they should be played as a wizard and stay out of melee at all!

After the spells are fired off however, when a "normal" wizard would be stuck with just slinging cantrips, they are cantrips + melee at the same time.

So I think the question is really "What's your best melee option after all your spell slots are used."

Having recently played a bladesinger from 1-13, I can tell your premise is flawed. Not that you can't play them that way, but that is not the best way to do so. It is distinctly inferior.

The idea is to get as much out of your slots as possible, using your weapon abilities to sub in for cantrips and other "low return" actions during the adventuring day to bring up your average effectiveness per action. It's why short days where you can just Nova favor casters - they have a very high effectiveness per action because they fill each action with a high return.

Think of these two cases:
CASE A: Only use slots for all encounters until out of them, and then use unbuffed weapon attacks.
CASE B: Mix using spells and weapons as appropriate for each. Times it's a big area of effect or crowd control, other times it may be a multi-person buff like an upcast fly. Some combats may be winding down and it's saving slots for later combats by using weapon. Other combats may be against foes that are resistant to damage types you have, have Magic Resistance giving advantage on all saves, or other reason why targeting them with spells is less than useful. Many combats do not need lots of slot use and a single long-duration Concentration buff works out to be the most efficient in terms of a good per-action efficiency now and additional slot resources when needed later.

Since, if it's the most efficient for that adventuring day, CASE B could mimic CASE A, we push forth that there is NO SITUATION where running a Bladesinger with CASE A is the superior choice. Your option is never the best one - it can't be. At the very best it can tie actually thinking and using your abilities where and when they make the best sense.

 

[DemoMonkey]

Blue

That is a well reasoned analysis, but it makes an incorrect assumption.

You assume something that I did not state; that you should use your spells indiscriminately and then go into melee when you have run out. I never made "Case A".

You should use them just as judiciously as a "regular" wizard. However, more often than not, the most effective use of your actions is to cast wizard spells. (That's just a function of the "powerful but limited" philosophy of spell design.) Certainly if your DM is grinding you with small attrition encounters that doesn't apply, but that is an exception rather than a rule.

And then, when you have shot the bolt - at exactly the same time as a "regular" wizard would have - is when your utility shines.

 

[Blue]

Blue

That is a well reasoned analysis, but it makes an incorrect assumption.

You assume something that I did not state; that you should use your spells indiscriminately and then go into melee when you have run out. I never made "Case A".

You should use them just as judiciously as a "regular" wizard. However, more often than not, the most effective use of your actions is to cast wizard spells. (That's just a function of the "powerful but limited" philosophy of spell design.) Certainly if your DM is grinding you with small attrition encounters that doesn't apply, but that is an exception rather than a rule.

And then, when you have shot the bolt - at exactly the same time as a "regular" wizard would have - is when your utility shines.

I do not accept you handwaving away every argument amde abotu using melee sooner. If you wish to debate, do it in good faith. Go back to my original email and address the points I made why I thought your conclusion is incorrect. Without that, there is literally no support for your side of the argument.

 

[DemoMonkey]

Aha, but you have made a classic blunder. You assume that I accept your lack of acceptance!

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

Aha, but you have made a classic blunder. You assume that I accept your lack of acceptance!

I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you!
Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

 

[omarbaza]

This is a very interesting thread ... I was thinking on making a dual wield AL10-compatible bladesinger... but seems that probably I should stay with 1 weapon fighting and probably use daggers instead when I can have that offhand attack.

I’m planning on going vhuman with the extra feat as resilient-con... I was going to pick warcaster for the dual-wielding but seems that probably is not the best option for the reasons above... I would love to use elven accuracy, but sadly if I choose my +1 book to be Tasha I can’t use elven accuracy because that’s xanathars...

So... scimitar + shadow blade in earlier levels, and then later use scimitar + spirit shroud/animate objects as my con spell, and whenever I have a chance draw and attack with a dagger...

or just forget about the off-hand and use a rapier

any thoughts ?

 

[Florida Viking]

I do not accept you handwaving away every argument amde abotu using melee sooner. If you wish to debate, do it in good faith. Go back to my original email and address the points I made why I thought your conclusion is incorrect. Without that, there is literally no support for your side of the argument.

Having recently played a bladesinger from 1-13, I can tell your premise is flawed. Not that you can't play them that way, but that is not the best way to do so. It is distinctly inferior.

The idea is to get as much out of your slots as possible, using your weapon abilities to sub in for cantrips and other "low return" actions during the adventuring day to bring up your average effectiveness per action. It's why short days where you can just Nova favor casters - they have a very high effectiveness per action because they fill each action with a high return.

Think of these two cases:
CASE A: Only use slots for all encounters until out of them, and then use unbuffed weapon attacks.
CASE B: Mix using spells and weapons as appropriate for each. Times it's a big area of effect or crowd control, other times it may be a multi-person buff like an upcast fly. Some combats may be winding down and it's saving slots for later combats by using weapon. Other combats may be against foes that are resistant to damage types you have, have Magic Resistance giving advantage on all saves, or other reason why targeting them with spells is less than useful. Many combats do not need lots of slot use and a single long-duration Concentration buff works out to be the most efficient in terms of a good per-action efficiency now and additional slot resources when needed later.

Since, if it's the most efficient for that adventuring day, CASE B could mimic CASE A, we push forth that there is NO SITUATION where running a Bladesinger with CASE A is the superior choice. Your option is never the best one - it can't be. At the very best it can tie actually thinking and using your abilities where and when they make the best sense.

I'm with you. Currently playing a Shadar-kai Bladesinger at lvl 12. We finished Phandelver and Below and are now moving into Vecna: Eve of Ruin. My PC likes Scimitars, a choice made for aesthetics and to not be power gaming with the standard rapier choice. Because we came out of P&B with a ton of money and items, we are pretty freaking set up.

Studded Leather +2, Dragon Slaying Scimitar +1, Flame Tongue Scimitar, Arcane Grimoire +2, Nevertoken, and due to a between campaigns mega dungeon crawl in which we took out 7 lich, a Balor, a Pit Fiend, a random Demon, 4 Vampires, and hordes of other undead & Canoloth trash, I now also have Baba Yaga's Mortal and Pestle. Granting me immunity to Charmed & Frightened, a free lvl 2 and lvl 6 spell, fast traveling and planar traveling and more. And I smell super gross and sour from 10' away. Fun RP shenanigans.

With a standing AC of 18, +8 to weapon attacks (+9 with Dragon Slayer Scimitar), +11 spell attack, 19 save DC, I freaking rock all across the board. We also have a Githzerai Monk who is one stunning SOB. We are often in lighted situations so the advantage of Shadow Blade is lost, so I often will cast Spirit Shroud at 5th when I can for 2d8 on all attacks within 10'. And my DM allows me to attack with the weapons as follows due to a discussion about using shadow blade with Two Weapon Fighting to still get the material component for Booming Blade. It's not necessary here but I just like to give the BB dmg to the sword with less inherent dmg of it's own. If one doesn't like that rule, then the BB dmg goes to a FT attack and the DS gets just the SS 2d8. Still works out to the same average dmg total.

First attack Flame Tongue: 1d6 + 2d6 + 2d8 + 4 = Avg 21
Second Dragon Slaying Booming Blade: 1d6 + 2d8 + 2d8 + 5 = Avg 24
Offhand Flame Tongue: 1d6 + 2d6 + 2d8 = 17
Total Avg if all hit: 62dmg

And with Elven Accuracy and a bevy of stunned foes from the Monk, It's worth it being in melee. AC of 23 with Bladesong to 27 with Shield. Tons of chances to crit, yeah, I'm in melee.

What I like to do is manage the field for a few rounds while also setting up my Spirit Shroud and Bladesong. Once the Monk has been stunning, I get to slicing along side our Barb and Swords Bard. Keeps me with spell slots for multiple encounters and RP situations between them. Plus the bonus to Arcane Recovery from the Grimoire, I'm feeling fantastic.