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Level Advancement Over A Lifetime

Elf advancement opver a lifetime

I decided with their longer lifetimes that elves would gather experience slower that humans, getting half an exp per day; 182exp/year

their (non-adventuring) lifetime looks like this

  • age 110 is level 1
  • age 116 is level 2
  • age 127 is level 3
  • age 143 is level 4
  • age 155 is level 5
  • 175 is “middle age” –1 S, D, & Co; +1 I, W, & Ch
  • age 193 is level 6
  • age 225 is level 7
  • age 263 is “old age” –2 S, D, & Co; +1 I, W, & Ch
  • age 264 is level 8
  • age 308 is level 9
  • age 350 is “venerable” –3 S, D, & Co; +1 I, W, & Ch
  • age 357 is level 10
  • age 412 is level 11
  • age 472 is level 12
  • age 538 is level 13
  • age 609 is level 14
  • age 686 is level 15
  • age 609 is level 16

Maximum age for elves is 750

even with gathering exp slower your average elf can reach higher levels than your average human.

BTW check out my NPC Guard over a lifetime thread
 
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Eeee!

Thanks for the additional comments, folks. :)

Inez Hull:
Rules Light: My "usual" campaigns are almost rules-absent, so I'm with you in spirit. I'm writing this for a more old school flava campaign, albeit a little more mature than my own old school...

Clunky: Looks cool - a very different approach to levels! I'm trying not to rewrite the core rules too much, though.

Green Knight:
Commoners in my Europ setting are generally lower level than the DMG might advise. That's on purpose, and is part of the gritty-mythic flavor. Heck, I want the PCs to start feeling like hot stuff when they hit 8th-9th level. I want fireball to be an awe inspiring sight. I don't want a city guardsman who can fight one of them toe to toe, unless he just happens to be a semi-retired mythic hero.

With that in mind, however, commoners don't level all that much faster than I'm estimating. The "highest level commoner" is very different from "most commoners". My rules address "most commoners", and we can figure out what an exceptional commoner (who takes great farming risks in return for great profits) might be like separately (or just use the DMG, but I don't).

And just as an aside: If you used my rules, but ignored my aging rules, you would end up with a fair number of 9th-10th level commoners among the oldest.

Phowett:
With no changes to the guidelines I provided, elvish elders will be more powerful. That's why I mentioned a few ways to tone them down. See my response to MavrickWeirdo, below, for a bit more on that.

Personally, I'm running an all-humans campaign with sidhe and fey instead of elves, dwarves, goblins, etc. And the sidhe are more powerful by a wide margin (they average 10th and up). The sidhe are something that the PCs will eventually deal with, but (like mythic heroes of old) dealing with the sidhe is something only heroes do.

MavrickWeirdo:
As always, very thought-provoking! I'm going to bake my noodle on this one a bit before responding in full, but my gut response is:

1) As I've mentioned before, high level elves don't really bother me.

2) This is an issue with the core system already; any fixes that we develop on this thread are icing on the cake :).

3) I think elves are a bit less insane under my system, if you use the 4 years per year for a CR 2 scenario option. At the very least, an elf won't hit 9th level until age 450.

4) You've done convinced me. Elves need harsh aging rules, too :).
 

My biggest concern with such things is that using the DMG type systems you have a city with no compentent smiths!

[run over to the Town Generator]
In a large town with almost 5000 inhabitants, we have 151 Experts... but only 7 of them are any good! (i.e. higher than level one). So, choose 7 establishments in town that have reasonable goods'n'services, and the rest only have 4 skill ranks to contribute. I guess there is a lot of "Take 20" going on to accomplish the basic baking, brewing, and carpentry...


Now on the flip side, I'm curious about the effect of adding the "XP as you age" rules. Now is the town of 5000 composed of 25% level 4 folk?

i.e. let's extrapolate this to community, rather than worrying about Farmer Joe in isolation.

John
 

Now that I actually think about it, since elves live the longest, don't you think they would be the strongest race (if they spent their lifetime adventuring)?
Certainly. That even fits Tolkien. An average Elf might be 5th level, in a society with plenty of epic-level veterans of ancient wars still leading the troops -- and still as spry as the younger troops.

The real issue is that we'd like a typical Elf to be a high-level Expert with amazing skill in "useless" things like Perform, Craft, etc. -- but that makes them better fighters than lower-level Orcs, when what we want is a bunch of erudite but effete poets barely holding off destructive hordes of killers.
 
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Greybar:
Depends on your population-by-age statistics. If 25% of the people in your hypothetical town are age 25 and up, then 25% of the town will be 4th level or higher.

My own setting (based on the age rules I gave) breaks down roughly like this:

Typical Clump of Villages: 1745
Under 15: 725 (41.5%)
15-19: 213 (12.2%) level 1-2
20-24: 197 (11.3%) level 3
25-29: 180 (10.3%) level 4
30-34: 158 (9%) level 4-5
35-39: 117 (6.7%) level 5
40-44: 75 (4.3%) level 5-6
45-49: 43 (2.5%) level 6
50-54: 23.5 (1.3%) level 6
55+: 12.5 (0.7%) level 7

Generally, there should be plenty of 4th level ("full professional") experts & commoners available in any reasonably populated region.

Basis
I based the above numbers on the below.

Death rate: (based on "best guess" averages for aging rolls)
below 15: 2% chance per year
15-29: 1% chance per year
30-34: 5% chance per year
35-39: 7% chance per year
40-44: 9% chance per year
45-49: 11% chance per year
50-54: 13% chance per year
55-59: 15% chance per year
etc.

For the sake of ease, I decided that there are 2 surviving babies per parent, and that 75% of those who survive to age 20 will be parents. I plugged those numbers into a spreadsheet of successive generations (assuming 50 per generation until the first generation was age 20).

Side Note: Interestingly enough, ignoring children, this comes out to an average life expectancy of about 29, which is reasonably close to the middle ages :D.

Side Note 2: The chances of making it past age 61 were less than 1 in 1,000. There will be people that old, but they are few and far between.
 

mmadsen:
Amen! I've been thinking about having a really poor BAB progression for non-fighting classes, and reducing hit points considerably.

Really, there's no reason for a Sage who has spent 30 years in a library to be any more accurate with any kind of weapon at all (except, perhaps, barbed words and biting sarcasm). And if he wants to improve his BAB, he can spend a level as a warrior :).

I need to finish working on the non-lifetime stuff so I can post it here and get comments! :D :D :D
 

Amen! I've been thinking about having a really poor BAB progression for non-fighting classes, and reducing hit points considerably.
With 3E's elegant multiclassing rules, I thought they would've solved that problem (and a few others). Hit Dice get in the way a bit, but imagine giving everyone some base amount of Hit Points (10 or Con or whatever) and (probably smaller) Hit Dice only for combatant classes.
Really, there's no reason for a Sage who has spent 30 years in a library to be any more accurate with any kind of weapon at all (except, perhaps, barbed words and biting sarcasm). And if he wants to improve his BAB, he can spend a level as a warrior :).
Exactly. If the Rogue class were a bit more flexible (based on Bonus Feats and not so closely tied to Sneak Attack), it would make a great Adventurer class that almost everyone who adventures could multiclass into. Thus, adventuring Wizards would have a higher BAB, higher Hit Points, and higher Saves than academic Wizards, and not all high-level Wizards would fight well, dodge fireballs, etc.
 

The following segment was written in response to MavrickWeirdo's comment.

My advancement rules were originally written for a setting with no dwarves, elves, gnomes, half-elves, half-orcs, or halflings. But that's just my setting... how can I make these rules work for other settings as well?

The first thing, of course, is to get me some aging rules for all of the races. This is pretty easy, actually: just multiply all human years by the race's maximum age (I rounded closest), divided by the human maximum age. Then use my modified human aging rules with the same multiplier.

Thus:

Code:
[COLOR=coral]
Race        Max     Mult    Adult   +/-1 abilities    Aging Roll
Dwarf       450     x4      60      per 20 over 100   per 4 over 120
Elf         750     x7      105     per 35 over 185   per 7 over 225
Gnome       500     x5      75      per 25 over 125   per 5 over 150
Half-Elf    185     x2      30      per 10 over 50    per 2 over 60
Half-Orc    80      x1      15      per 5 over 25     per 1 over 30
Halfling    200     x2      30      per 10 over 50    per 2 over 60
Human       110     x1      15      per 5 over 25     per 1 over 30
[/COLOR]

Vaguely boring, sure, but it gets the job done and keeps it out of the way. I'd love to see some rules for elves "fading" instead of "aging", but it's not really necessary.

Once that's done, there is a question about your setting that has to be answered: Do you want the long-lived races to be slow learners or do you want to deal with the effects of them achieving higher levels? Note that you need to answer this question no matter what, if you have long-lived races who gain experience points.

Slow Learners: Easy, just multiply years and months (for non-adventurous jobs) by their age multiplier for purposes of CR of scenarios. Thus, an elf has to farm for 7 years before gaining the XP for a CR 2 farming scenario. If you are using MavrickWeirdo's simpler rules, an elf gains 1 XP every 7 days (elves "learn something new every week" :)).

Longevity Means Experience: This is more difficult, but can be more rewarding in terms of the richness and believability of your setting. Here are some possible approaches to the issue:

Reign of Flowers
Elves rule the world. "Young" elves (between age 105 and 200) are typically below 10th level, but any elf old enough to have started aging is more skilled than all but the most legendary of humans. In order to maintain their political superiority, there will need to be at least one "aged" elf per 10-40 humans (depending on level), and they will need to be ruthless when it comes to human heroes, rebellions and whatnot.

So Few Left
Once, perhaps, elves ruled the world. But today, there are simply too few of them to do so. There are a hundred or more humans per elf, and that's not even counting the upstart dwarves and gnomes, or the barbaric orcs and goblinoids. Sure, individual elves are ancient and powerful, but an uppity elf will likely get swarmed by a kingdom of humans... and killing all of them is likely beyond him.

Summerlands
The elves are powerful, but are concerned with events in their own realms. This is much how the Epic Levels Handbook seems to suggest Epic NPCs are handled, and it works okay. Vaguely Tolkien. This is also sort of how I'm handling their equivalent-in-spirit in my own Europ setting.

Guiding Hands
The elves live so long because they've largely conquered their own gaps in worldly understanding. Now they provide (benevolently) a guiding hand to those who ask it, and otherwise leave the world alone.

Humans Don't Organize, Mr. Silverleaf
There are not quite enough elves to maintain a ruthless grip over the world, and humans have organized a thorough resistance. You could have Swiss-like dwarves who are curious which side will win, halfling guerillas helping the humans secretly, and elven traitors (who may simply be agents for the enemy). This will also tend to result in higher average levels for humans, because of their constant state of warring.
 

mmadsen
CON + (smaller number of hp) is pretty much the basis for Ken Hood's Grim-n-Gritty rules. I'm using a variant of them for my Europ setting, although I haven't finished going through everything with my fine toothed comb yet :).

I'm working on my own set of Core Classes for Europ (Europ is more of d20 setting than it is a D&D setting ;)). Unfortunately, I haven't really finalized them yet. If you want to take a look, go to my home page and follow the link to Europ; that's got everything I'm working on.

And yeah, rogue could have been a lot cooler.
 

Having done a thesis on genetic algorithms as a means of computation, I have this *terrible* urge to plug all of this into a GA-based engine and plug out a couple dozen generations. Do adventurers pass on their good genetics (i.e. good attributes) to offspring before being eaten by dragons? Do children tend to take up their parent's professions? Would the world be ruled by elvish cleric/rogues? eek:

must... resist...

John:
 

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