"Level" based feats and ECL

[Shin Okada]

Ok, first of all, this is rules forum and not house rule forum. So if you ask that question here, the answer is "Use HD/character level, that is the rule."

If you ask the same question on the house rules forum, there should be various answers and opinions.

And my opinion is, "No, use HD/CL as per the rule". There is no need for LA +X race to always have the same benefit as LA +0 race with same ECL.

Edit/Addition : Paladin's mount, Druid's companion, Mage's familiars. All of them are determined by class level. Even how heroic the multiclassed Paladin 10/Fighter 10 is, he cannot aquire the respet from higher level mounts which pure 20th-level Paladin has. This seems to be a similar case for me. LA+X is somewhat similar to multicalassing. So you suffer from having low total HD. Like multi-classed character suffer from having low total level for certain one class.

 

[irdeggman]

Yep,
I think I'd treat VoP and leadership differently than others (including leadership qualifications) because it makes sense for those two (VoP for balancing expected wealth and leadership for seeming reasonable (followers come based on power, not some Hit Die mechanic). I'd keep the others the same. But I don't think it's clear cut at all (which is why I asked)

Mark

Actually it is clear.

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills.
If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature, it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later).

Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels a PC can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice.

Hit Dice: The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do.

Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases: A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

The only things you count ECL for as character level are the things spelled out.

Since Leadership and VoP benefits are not specifically listed, nor does it say to use ECL for the benefits fo the feats in the feat descriptions - then it is clear. It only becomes unclear when trying to "rationalize" it. But the RAW is pretty specific. ECL does not count for max skill ranks, for character level based feats, etc. . .

 

[eamon]

The only things you count ECL for as character level are the things spelled out.

Since Leadership and VoP benefits are not specifically listed, nor does it say to use ECL for the benefits fo the feats in the feat descriptions - then it is clear. It only becomes unclear when trying to "rationalize" it. But the RAW is pretty specific. ECL does not count for max skill ranks, for character level based feats, etc. . .

Of course, Vow of Poverty is non-core, and you can't expect the core books to refer to it... You're right that a literal interpretation is clear: VoP grants benefints based on character level, and nothing else.

There's no harm in being reasonable though, and allowing leadership and vow of poverty to apply according to ECL. I mean you apply ECL to the followers after all... and if a 15th level human palading can have a 13th level human cohort, I think a 15th level drow paladin should be allowed a 13th level drow cohort, all else being equal - despite the lack of explicit rules - right?

 

[gnfnrf]

There's no harm in being reasonable though, and allowing leadership and vow of poverty to apply according to ECL. I mean you apply ECL to the followers after all... and if a 15th level human palading can have a 13th level human cohort, I think a 15th level drow paladin should be allowed a 13th level drow cohort, all else being equal - despite the lack of explicit rules - right?

First, I assume you mean an ECL 15 drow paladin, who is actually 13th level, right? Otherwise, of course.

For the first case, why not then say...

An ECL 11 human (11 class levels) can survive a CL 20 Word of Chaos, why not an ECL 11 drow (9 class levels)?

Or,

An ECL 20 minotaur fighter will likely have the same overall attack bonus as an ECL 20 human fighter, so why can't he use Power Attack for -20/+20?

For VoP, there is a case that it makes more sense to play it with ECL, since it replaces PC wealth, which is based on ECL. But leadership, like many other feats, is weakened by higher ECL races. This is part of the ECL price. If this makes leadership worthless for high ECL races, that's a pity.

--
gnfnrf

 

[Arkhandus]

ECL (LA + class levels) only ever counts for purposes of determining Experience Points and wealth/treasure. ONLY.

 

[irdeggman]

Of course, Vow of Poverty is non-core, and you can't expect the core books to refer to it... You're right that a literal interpretation is clear: VoP grants benefints based on character level, and nothing else.

There's no harm in being reasonable though, and allowing leadership and vow of poverty to apply according to ECL. I mean you apply ECL to the followers after all... and if a 15th level human palading can have a 13th level human cohort, I think a 15th level drow paladin should be allowed a 13th level drow cohort, all else being equal - despite the lack of explicit rules - right?

The comment I was answering earlier was that it was not clear (or clear cut) how it applied (in the RAW).

The answer is that it is very clear how it applies per the RAW.

Anything else is house-rules territory (which has another forum) and would get different responses because of that. There is a difference in how a question/comment is addressed based on the context it is asked.

From a house-rules (no harm in doing such and such) type of approach you get completely different perspectives and usually it will depend on how "other things" are done in order to see how it fits in balance-wise.

But from a strictly RAW opinion - it is clear what it means and how VoW and leadership apply (ECL doesn't count).

 

[brehobit]

From a house-rules (no harm in doing such and such) type of approach you get completely different perspectives and usually it will depend on how "other things" are done in order to see how it fits in balance-wise.

But from a strictly RAW opinion - it is clear what it means and how VoW and leadership apply (ECL doesn't count).

#1 I don't know that I agree on the RAW issue.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

Can be argued two ways. First, it doesn't say these are the only uses. Secondly, it does use ECL for starting wealth. Given that VoP is a replacement for wealth in general, and starting wealth in particular, I'd say it's a reasonable interpretation that ECL _should_ apply here. Nothing prevents it in the rule (argument #1) and it seems to be implied (argument #2).

#2 I think the use of the forum for answering "rules questions" that aren't "what is the RAW" but rather "this looks bogus, how do you handle it" is generally considered acceptable these days.



Mark

 

[irdeggman]

#1 I don't know that I agree on the RAW issue.

Can be argued two ways. First, it doesn't say these are the only uses. Secondly, it does use ECL for starting wealth. Given that VoP is a replacement for wealth in general, and starting wealth in particular, I'd say it's a reasonable interpretation that ECL _should_ apply here. Nothing prevents it in the rule (argument #1) and it seems to be implied (argument #2).

Well it is difficult to argue against when it says use it for this and use it for this other thing - that the meaning is not all-inclusive.

VoP has always had a lot of people attempting to make interpretations on what is allowed to be owned. There is a specific list in the feat description -and it is very specific, so extrapolating from that to "not owning things" is difficult to make a convincing. For example holy symbols and spell books are not on the list - so are specifically not allowed. The FAQ (and Rules of the Game) have also backed this up.

Leadership, as an optional feat, also contains some warnings for the DM to consider before allowing it in the first place. DMG pg 106. So there is a lot to consider with it and the fact that it can readily place a game out of balance if not handled well.

#2 I think the use of the forum for answering "rules questions" that aren't "what is the RAW" but rather "this looks bogus, how do you handle it" is generally considered acceptable these days.

Agreed.

But answers in this forum will tend to revolve around the rules as written (even comparing them to other rules and sources) rather than extrapolations on how to do something in a specific game.