Level drain, XP loss, oh my

[Crothian]

While it says levels, I'd actually use experience as the guide line. Wights drain XP, so much so that you become a lower level. Restoration restores the lost XP, and that again effects your level. XP and Levls are tied together in such a way they can be interchanged like that. THat way when you accumulate XP before the lost is restored, you're still just addinging the lost XP back.

 

[Belares]

I would like to see where in any books it states "you get back all lost levels AND the experience gained since losing those levels are added to make you X level". I am not bashing I am really interested in exactly where this is/was stated. I believe AGGEMAN said it was DEBATEd more than once. If it not anywhere in books or erratas I am still ok with it.

 

[Anubis]

Like I said, I have no idea *exactly* where it is, but I'm pretty sure it's in the DMG somewhere. Of course, it assumes that you lose levels, not XP. It does say that you get to add all intervening XP between the loss and the restoration, however. Somewhere. Not sure where.

 

[Forrester]

Like I said, I have no idea *exactly* where it is, but I'm pretty sure it's in the DMG somewhere. Of course, it assumes that you lose levels, not XP. It does say that you get to add all intervening XP between the loss and the restoration, however. Somewhere. Not sure where.

I remain skeptical .

It's a reasonable house-rule, I suppose. But I've never seen such a thing in the Core Rules.

And I don't think level-draining shouldn't be completely emasculated.

In earlier editions, level-draining offered no saving throw and you needed a 7th level spell to get the level back.

Now, you GET a saving throw (not a tough one either, usually), and you can get the level back with a 4th level spell.

Would you like to reduce the effect of a level drain to that of a bad itch?!

Allowing restoration to give *all* experience back, on top of experience already gained, seems iffy to me. Not our fault you're not buddies with a 7th level cleric. But hey, Rule 0 away if you'd like.

I guess I have a problem with people going from 11th level to 13th level when they've done nothing but fight a battle at 11th level (and lose), and fight a bunch of battles between 4th level and 10th level (and win).

Odd.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I am still on the fence regarding this issue, but I am leaning more toward Forrester's interpretation. IOW, restoration and gaining XP normally do not stack. If you lose 2 levels from an energy drain and gain one back through XP gained by adventuring, restoration will restore the remaining level. But if you gain them both back thru adventuring, then restoration will not help you because you already regained your lost experience. You have nothing left to restore.

 

[Anubis]

I remain skeptical .

It's a reasonable house-rule, I suppose. But I've never seen such a thing in the Core Rules.

And I don't think level-draining shouldn't be completely emasculated.

In earlier editions, level-draining offered no saving throw and you needed a 7th level spell to get the level back.

Now, you GET a saving throw (not a tough one either, usually), and you can get the level back with a 4th level spell.

Would you like to reduce the effect of a level drain to that of a bad itch?!

Allowing restoration to give *all* experience back, on top of experience already gained, seems iffy to me. Not our fault you're not buddies with a 7th level cleric. But hey, Rule 0 away if you'd like.

I guess I have a problem with people going from 11th level to 13th level when they've done nothing but fight a battle at 11th level (and lose), and fight a bunch of battles between 4th level and 10th level (and win).

Odd.

I never liked energy drain before. It offered too many penalties and almost no way to fix things. It was unfair and made the game less fun. The introduction of a save was the best thing, along with all the spells. The new energy drain is much better.

Before, I almost never used energy draining monsters because one or two hits from one could set the campaign back weeks or even months. (If you designed an adventure for Level 7 and two or three people are reduced to Level 5, you have to keep going until you get back to where you were.)

Things like that should never set a campaign back so far. NEVER. It ruins the fun. Bad enough you lose a lever when you die. (I prefered Constitution going down.)

 

[Anubis]

I am still on the fence regarding this issue, but I am leaning more toward Forrester's interpretation. IOW, restoration and gaining XP normally do not stack. If you lose 2 levels from an energy drain and gain one back through XP gained by adventuring, restoration will restore the remaining level. But if you gain them both back thru adventuring, then restoration will not help you because you already regained your lost experience. You have nothing left to restore.

But then where did all the XP you gained go? Is it really fair to just have that XP disappear without a trace? Energy drain is supposed to be taking your life essense, it should not make you just "forget" everything.

It's a handicap, that's all.

Those XP you gain you should keep. Restoration puts you at the bottom of your old level, and the XP you gain in the mean time is added to that total.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

But then where did all the XP you gained go? Is it really fair to just have that XP disappear without a trace? Energy drain is supposed to be taking your life essense, it should not make you just "forget" everything.

But it does just that. That is why you need the restoration spell to get it back. My thought is that if you get it back normally, you no longer need the restoration spell. They do not stack, IOW.

It's a handicap, that's all.

I agree that having a negative level could be called a handicap, but losing the level is not a handicap, it's a loss.

Those XP you gain you should keep. Restoration puts you at the bottom of your old level, and the XP you gain in the mean time is added to that total.

Like I said, I am still on the fence. But I fail to see why the character should keep them. It may be that they do keep them by the rules, but that is not at all clear yet, at least to me. Much of what I am saying here is just "thinking out loud" so I can get some feedback.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

Concerning the three restoration spells - I quote the relevant text from what I have: the first printing of the PHB.


For Restoration

As lesser restoration, except the spell dispels negative energy levels and restores ONE experience level.


For Greater Restoration -

as lesser restoration, except the spell dispels all negative energy levels afflicting the creature restoring the creature to the hightest level it had previously achieved


At the moment the spell is recieved, the character or creature's xp total is "reset to where it was" - immediately. The XP "gained" by facing encounters from the time that a character is drained to the time the spell is cast is essentially gone, as the restoration spells EXPLICITLY reset a character's XP total, much as the feeblemind spell "sets" a character's intelligence score.

Now - if any of the restoration spells are "cast" before it becomes necessary to make the saving throws from the negative energy levels bestowed leaving of their own accord - then the XP is never truly "lost" - the character is still 10th level, but was fighting without the benefits of some of those levels, much as fighting "wounded".

From a TECHNICAL standpoint - the character is still CR 10, but having to fight "down levels" is definitely something that I would consider as modifying the CR scores used to award experience. For legal reasons, I do not wish to discuss exactly how I would do so.

To understand the argument here - it is necessary to point out a fine distinction between "having negative energy levels" and "being level drained". In 3e - the definition is much much more exacting. A character can be struck by "negative energy levels" by various means. A character is NOT "level drained" - until those negative energy levels have become permanent by virtue of the character having failed their Fortitude saving throw to have them removed.

IMO -
The casting of multiple restoration spells could restore all "lost" levels - if more than one was drained.

citation sources - first printing PHB and DMG
pg 75-76, DMG
Restoration spell
Greater Restoration spell

 

[AGGEMAM]

I addition to what I said earlier. I should add that the conclusion the last couple of times this has been discussed was also in favor of that restoration spells could only restore XP up to the lowest amount of XP needed to gain the highest level you were before the energy drain.