Level Drain

[Herzog]

Unless I'm mistaken, an Undead (in this case, Vampire)'s Level Drain (Energy Drain that causes level los) doesn't allow an initial save.

(please correct me immediately if I'm wrong)

This means accumulating penalties during combat without a save.

I (the DM) and my players hate level drain to begin with, and most of the time I avoid creatures with this ability, but since the party is high enough lvl in this case to fix it within 24 hours, with this particular group I didn't mind the result. However, the lack of a save surprised both me and the players, and I introduced an immediate save for the initial effect anyway.

Assuming I continue to use the initial save against ability and level drain, how would that affect the CR of creatures with this ability? (taking CR as a measure of strength of the creature, however inaccurate it may be)

 

[kitcik]

Unless I'm mistaken, an Undead (in this case, Vampire)'s Level Drain (Energy Drain that causes level los) doesn't allow an initial save.

(please correct me immediately if I'm wrong)

This means accumulating penalties during combat without a save.

I (the DM) and my players hate level drain to begin with, and most of the time I avoid creatures with this ability, but since the party is high enough lvl in this case to fix it within 24 hours, with this particular group I didn't mind the result. However, the lack of a save surprised both me and the players, and I introduced an immediate save for the initial effect anyway.

Assuming I continue to use the initial save against ability and level drain, how would that affect the CR of creatures with this ability? (taking CR as a measure of strength of the creature, however inaccurate it may be)

I'm no expert on estimating CR, but I would think it could reduce it significantly. Level drain is one of their primary offensive actions and taking it from 100% on a hit to a much lower percent (depending on the DC you assign and the characters' saves) could be a big nerf. I guess if you set the DC high enough such that the characters had a "chance" but still needed to roll a 20 or so, that wouldn't have much impact.

 

[Nagol]

Some creatures, like the Wight, do offer an initial saving throw versus the negative energy level.

I'd probably say adding an initial save would shift the CR down one if the attack is the creature primary mode.

 

[Hassassin]

In the case of Vampire, reducing the CR by one is the only real alternative. The template adds +2 CR, and even completely without energy drain it'd definitely be worth a +1. OTOH, energy drain is the primary attack.

If you make the save such that PC's will on average fail at least 50% of the time, I think -1 CR is fine. For monsters even more reliant on energy drain, -2 might be warranted, but no more unless you choose a very low save DC.

Assuming the save you chose is Fort. (like for 2nd roll) you should note that this changes the ability to work better against non-tanks. An intelligent vampire will probably know from experience that he'll have an easier time draining a frailer target.

 

[Herzog]

[MENTION=23935]Nagol[/MENTION]: do you have a reference for that? Can't see one in the SRD, and away from books...

Others: for reference, I used the CR15 elite vampire from the Monster Manual I (against lvl 11/10/10/9/8 party) which has levels of monk and shadow dancer (so I should probably have reduced the CR anyway.... )

For the initial save, I used the same save (and DC) as would normally be allowed after 24 hours to remove the temporary level loss (in this case Fort, DC 17 IIRC)

In hindsight, I should have let them roll saves seperately for each level (vampire drains two level) instead of a single save, and the remark about targetting creatures with low Fort first is dead on. Just didn't think that one through. I blame my inexperience with Level Drain in general....

 

[Nagol]

My mistake; I got confused with the wraith (save vs. Con dmg).

The wight is a standard gain a negative level save to remove/convert to level loss.

 

[kitcik]

@Nagol : do you have a reference for that? Can't see one in the SRD, and away from books...

Others: for reference, I used the CR15 elite vampire from the Monster Manual I (against lvl 11/10/10/9/8 party) which has levels of monk and shadow dancer (so I should probably have reduced the CR anyway.... )

For the initial save, I used the same save (and DC) as would normally be allowed after 24 hours to remove the temporary level loss (in this case Fort, DC 17 IIRC)

In hindsight, I should have let them roll saves seperately for each level (vampire drains two level) instead of a single save, and the remark about targetting creatures with low Fort first is dead on. Just didn't think that one through. I blame my inexperience with Level Drain in general....

Since it is supposed to have no save, consider upping the initial DC (maybe by 5) knowing that they will get a second save in 24 hours (after their body has had time to build up some resistance -- thus a better DC).

 

[Grogg of the North]

Your AC is your save. As lame as that may be.

With that being said, there are plenty of ways to get around energy drain attacks. Death Ward, Scarab of Protection, Soul Fire Armor, Turn/Rebuke, Restoration and just being clever little PCs. There is nothing more dangerous to a monster than a clever player.

Negative levels aren't as bad as Save or Die and Save or Lose abilities (which I dislike). And if you take the threat of negative levels away, or reduce it by offering an additional save in the case of vampires, then you may be taking a large amount of the danger away from the monster. Energy drain is a nasty ability and it should be feared appropriately.

Is the campaign focusing primarily on fighting undead? If so, then your PCs should really be planning on running into energy draining monsters often and plan/equip accordingly. Though sometimes PCs can be thicker than mud.

If this was just a random encounter ... well your PCs should be thankful for their good luck and share their tale with others at the local tavern.

 

[kitcik]

There is nothing more dangerous to a monster than a clever player.

Though sometimes PCs can be thicker than mud.

This reminded me of a question. I will start a new thread.

 

[Greenfield]

Okay, here's an odd question that's sort of on topic:

The Bardic ability to Inspire Greatness grants the recipient two additional hit dice, complete with CON bonus to hit points, along with a two point combat bonus that counts in every way as BAB.

Said enhanced fighter get's drained by a Vampire.

What happens?

If it was a CON drain, and they had Bear's Endurance up, we'd generally rule that it was temporary CON points that got drained.

If it was a Strength drain and they had Bull's Strength in place, we'd generally rule that it was the temporary Strength points that got sapped.

So would the Vampire's attack drain the temporary levels/hit dice first?