Level Drain

[Arrowhawk]

Okay, here's an odd question that's sort of on topic:

The Bardic ability to Inspire Greatness grants the recipient two additional hit dice, complete with CON bonus to hit points, along with a two point combat bonus that counts in every way as BAB.

Said enhanced fighter get's drained by a Vampire.

What happens?

If it was a CON drain, and they had Bear's Endurance up, we'd generally rule that it was temporary CON points that got drained.

If it was a Strength drain and they had Bull's Strength in place, we'd generally rule that it was the temporary Strength points that got sapped.

So would the Vampire's attack drain the temporary levels/hit dice first?

Why would rule that the temp buffs were drained and not the underlying abilities? Is that a RAW requirement? Obviously it's beneficial for the player...

 

[billd91]

Okay, here's an odd question that's sort of on topic:

The Bardic ability to Inspire Greatness grants the recipient two additional hit dice, complete with CON bonus to hit points, along with a two point combat bonus that counts in every way as BAB.

Said enhanced fighter get's drained by a Vampire.

What happens?

If it was a CON drain, and they had Bear's Endurance up, we'd generally rule that it was temporary CON points that got drained.

If it was a Strength drain and they had Bull's Strength in place, we'd generally rule that it was the temporary Strength points that got sapped.

So would the Vampire's attack drain the temporary levels/hit dice first?

I wouldn't. And I generally don't in the case of temporary bonuses to stats. After all, how would you handle someone's strength or con being drained with a magic item that permanently boosts that stat? Does it drain the item? Does it do so permanently if all of its levels are gone?

I treat these things more like a barbarian's hit points under a rage. The stat is higher so that it can withstand more punishment overall, but one the effect is gone, the stat is reduced to non-buffed levels.... even if those levels are lowered thanks to stat damage.

Undead should be pretty fearsome, not so easily thwarted by 2nd level stat buff spells.

 

[irdeggman]

There are very few creatures that do level drains any more.

Vampires and Wights give negative levels - which are not permanent unless the subsequent save is failed.

ENERGY DRAIN AND NEGATIVE LEVELS
Some horrible creatures, especially undead monsters, possess a fearsome supernatural ability to drain levels from those they strike in combat. The creature making an energy drain attack draws a portion of its victim’s life force from her. Most energy drain attacks require a successful melee attack roll—mere physical contact is not enough. Each successful energy drain attack bestows one or more negative levels on the opponent. A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained.
–1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
–1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
–5 hit points.
–1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.
Negative levels remain for 24 hours or until removed with a spell, such as restoration. After 24 hours, the afflicted creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 attacker’s HD + attacker’s Cha modifier). (The DC is provided in the attacker’s description.) If the saving throw succeeds, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. The afflicted creature makes a separate saving throw for each negative level it has gained. If the save fails, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one.
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight. A creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect

Pretty much the same thing applies to ability damage (it comes back on its own) very few creature do actual ability drain.

Restoration (cleric 4th level spell) restores level loss and ability drains. Only 1 level restored per casting but the greater version (7th level restores all).

Basically things are no where near as devasting as they used to be with level drain and ability loss since most of the time they are temporary to start with.

 

[kitcik]

The reasoning for removing temporary ability bonuses first is analogous to losing temporary hit points first. I'm not sure if there is any RAW to support it, but I like the idea.

As far as Inspire Greatness vs. receiving a negative level - I agree they are close to inverse, but not close enough for me. I would impose the full negative level and have no impact on the Inspire Greatness. However, having the negative level wipe away the Inspire Greatness first is a reasonable house rule if you like it that way.

 

[Greenfield]

Why would rule that the temp buffs were drained and not the underlying abilities? Is that a RAW requirement? Obviously it's beneficial for the player...

Interesting question, particularly from you. (No snark intended.)

It has to do with context.

Spells such as False Life grant temporary hit points, as do some feats. When the recipient of such a bonus gets injured, those are the ones that go first.

With that thought in mind, we viewed temporary ability points the same way: They're the ones that go away first.

Permanent items we treated differently, since the item can't be drained. Also note the descriptor "permanent", regarding such items. We don't treat the ability points as temporary, since the item isn't. So if a person using a permanent stat item gets stat drained, it's the character, not the item, that gets drained.

Remember that, although the items are based on the buffing spells, they don't necessarily work exactly the same way. The fact that they can grant ability bonuses other than 4 kind of demonstrates that.

 

[Greenfield]

The reasoning for removing temporary ability bonuses first is analogous to losing temporary hit points first. I'm not sure if there is any RAW to support it, but I like the idea.

As far as Inspire Greatness vs. receiving a negative level - I agree they are close to inverse, but not close enough for me. I would impose the full negative level and have no impact on the Inspire Greatness. However, having the negative level wipe away the Inspire Greatness first is a reasonable house rule if you like it that way.

I can see your view on that. But Inspire Greatness says that the extra hit dice count towards BAB, when calculating iterative attacks, and towards actual hit dice when considering whether someone can be subject to spells that have level limits. Aside from Skills or Feats, they are for all intents and purposes temporary levels.

What would be cheesy would be to do Inspire Greatness on someone the day after the negative levels were gained, and let those temporary levels be the ones lost. While it might be mechanically more sound, since that's when the actual level loss takes place, it's such a can of cheeze-whiz that nobody in their right mind would allow it.

Of course, "gamers" and "in their right mind" don't always belong in the same sentence, so who knows?

 

[Grand Poobah]

How does the level/ability drain affect the stat/level buff spell? Surely it's the spell that's providing the additional bonus and as the attack isn't aimed at the spell I'd rule the bonus is unaffected and the base stat or level is lost.

 

[Greenfield]

As a DM you're free to rule any way you want. And I can see arguments on both sides.

The precedent set by various sources of temporary hit points is persuasive enough for my group. You and yours are free to remain unpersuaded. I'm not going to fight you on this.

 

[Arrowhawk]

Interesting question, particularly from you. (No snark intended.)

It has to do with context.

Spells such as False Life grant temporary hit points, as do some feats. When the recipient of such a bonus gets injured, those are the ones that go first.

With that thought in mind, we viewed temporary ability points the same way: They're the ones that go away first.

Permanent items we treated differently, since the item can't be drained. Also note the descriptor "permanent", regarding such items. We don't treat the ability points as temporary, since the item isn't. So if a person using a permanent stat item gets stat drained, it's the character, not the item, that gets drained.

Remember that, although the items are based on the buffing spells, they don't necessarily work exactly the same way. The fact that they can grant ability bonuses other than 4 kind of demonstrates that.

So you're taking one mechanic and comparing it to another mechanic and then deciding based on the similarities of context that the first mechanic should influence how the second mechanic might work? Yes, I am familiar with that technique.

While the rationale is novel, I can't say I would have come to the same conclusions. Is there an underlying assumptions about what it means to drain a creature of ability/levels or is it just simply how your group has chosen to navigate the mechanics?

 

[Greenfield]

So you're taking one mechanic and comparing it to another mechanic and then deciding based on the similarities of context that the first mechanic should influence how the second mechanic might work? Yes, I am familiar with that technique.

While the rationale is novel, I can't say I would have come to the same conclusions. Is there an underlying assumptions about what it means to drain a creature of ability/levels or is it just simply how your group has chosen to navigate the mechanics?

I've already explained the underlying reasoning, that we treat temp stats this way because there's a precedent set in the way the rules handle temp hit points.

So if that explanation isn't sufficient, then I'm not at all sure how to answer your question.