Playtest (A5E) Level Up Playtest Document #4: Druid

Welcome to the fourth Level Up playtest document. This playtest contains a candidate for the first 10 levels of game’s druid class.

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Are you ready to level up your 5E game? Welcome to Level Up, the standalone 'advanced 5E' backwards compatible tabletop RPG coming in 2021!

A crunchier, more flexible version of the 5E ruleset which you know and love. If you love 5E but would like a little more depth to the ruleset, Level Up is the game for you!

What this is​

This is a playtest document. We’d love you to try out the rules presented here, and then answer the follow-up survey in a few days.

What this is not​

This is NOT the final game. It’s OK if you don’t like elements of these rules; that’s the purpose of a playtest document. Be sure to participate in the follow-up survey in a few days. All data, positive or negative is useful.

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[Stacie GmrGrl]

This is the first A5E release packet that's very underwhelming and seems almost cripplingly weak done on purpose for some kind of internal balance system if perception we can't fully understand yet.

Why the limitations on Wild Shape is beyond me. If WS was a point pool system, where the character got a pool of points to spend on how they chose to WS themselves instead of relying on all the creatures in a Monster Manual that we don't have yet for A5E...

Plus super limiting what spells can be cast in any WS form seems ludicrously limiting in a game of super high fantasy super heroics is just bonkers.

And not having access to the spells so we can fully measure the full capabilities of the Druid doesn't let us get the full scope of the class as is.

I wouldn't even do a survey for this right now because of the lack of spells since this is technically a spellcasting class and it's hard to fully judge this class without the spells and it's hard for us to be fair in our judgement because of this.

Based on this class release alone the Druid looks weak and unfun and seems super limited in what it can do and I'd never play one.

 

[Horwath]

This is the first A5E release packet that's very underwhelming and seems almost cripplingly weak done on purpose for some kind of internal balance system if perception we can't fully understand yet.

Why the limitations on Wild Shape is beyond me. If WS was a point pool system, where the character got a pool of points to spend on how they chose to WS themselves instead of relying on all the creatures in a Monster Manual that we don't have yet for A5E...

Plus super limiting what spells can be cast in any WS form seems ludicrously limiting in a game of super high fantasy super heroics is just bonkers.

And not having access to the spells so we can fully measure the full capabilities of the Druid doesn't let us get the full scope of the class as is.

I wouldn't even do a survey for this right now because of the lack of spells since this is technically a spellcasting class and it's hard to fully judge this class without the spells and it's hard for us to be fair in our judgement because of this.

Based on this class release alone the Druid looks weak and unfun and seems super limited in what it can do and I'd never play one.

well, this is a playtest and their 1st public draft for the druid, and we expected that there could be a blunder or two on the way to the final product, and IMHO this druid draft is a little blunder.
Number one reason being wild shape,

knacks are OK, druidcraft should be bonus cantrip for all druids,

Untamed Demeanor, Druidic Lore and Ferocity or Serenity seem to have nice options for different play styles of druid.

I just wish that they get rid of the expertise dice idea and keep it to default expertise mechanics of 5E(double modifier)

 

[tetrasodium]

well, this is a playtest and their 1st public draft for the druid, and we expected that there could be a blunder or two on the way to the final product, and IMHO this druid draft is a little blunder.
Number one reason being wild shape,

knacks are OK, druidcraft should be bonus cantrip for all druids,

Untamed Demeanor, Druidic Lore and Ferocity or Serenity seem to have nice options for different play styles of druid.

I just wish that they get rid of the expertise dice idea and keep it to default expertise mechanics of 5E(double modifier)

No the knacks feel really bad, take this easy example
Rogue climb related knack gives expertise on all athletics checks & a climb speed

Fighter climb related knack gives a climb speed, the option to spend exertion to reroll athletics when climbing, and you ignore nonmagical difficult terrain.

druid climb related knack gives a climb speed and an expertise die on athletics checks specifically limited to climbing(perhaps if you were using athletics rather than your climb speed to climb?) in comparison to the rogue's unrestrained athletics check expertise die, then it tops it all off with being "acclimated" to a situation likely to almost never come up in any game ever.

The others don't really feel like they hold a candle to their rogue/fighter counterpartsare generally feeling lacking. Compare te rogue's observer giving an expertise die on all perception checks & a +3 passive perception

to the druid's aerial surveyor also giving one expertise die to perception but limiting it to perception checks made from great heights or while flying without the passive perception bump making it worse in an extra way.

Eldritch survivor might actually be good depending on what the skills changes look like, but lets be honest & admit that some of that should be stuff nature should probably do by default from a druid given all the fluff & restrictions elsewhere trying to reinforce the fact that the druid is designed to interact with those things & stop the bad ones.

The expertise dice are a dramatic improvement over double proficiency, but unlike the rogue who has ability chains that can bump specific skill expertise dice the druid just has a chance at 3 to choose between a pair of potentially useful abilities or one of two others that give an expertise die on nature & animal handling respectively... Then their knacks include options that grant an expertise die on athletics checks (athletics is not even on the druid skill list!) needed to swim(lots of fish make those I bet?), an expertise die on athletics checks specifically to climb, an expertise die on whatever specifically when basically foraging for food. Part of the problem is that nature is generally a terrible skill & despite being a d8 medium armor divine caster like cleric who actually have archetypes to be a d8 heavy armor divine caster druid is still being punished for the sins of 3.5 CoDzilla* by actually being a d8 padded leather & hide divine caster & has everything under the sun (needlessly?)restricted in any way possible to make sure it doesn't get delusions of the past. without some details on the new spell list stuff or weapon & armor stuff we don't eve know how awful this is or if all of these seemingly needless restrictions are even warranted.

. * CoDzilla was the 3.5 term to summarize Cleric or Druid-(god)zilla, here's more on it

 

[Arilyn]

I have reservations about this druid.

Wild Shape: The hp bump is nice but I really dislike the limit on wildshapes. It vastly decreases versatility, and it's not needed, since it's already limited by CR, as well as waiting for swimming and flying.
Being able to cast a little magic is nice, though.

Druidic Secrets: Once per long rest? This is hard to explain and rather limiting.

Waste Not: Doesn't feel very druidy, and by 7th level, characters probably won't need to scavenge body parts for money.

Exploration Knacks: Not as strong as we saw with the fighter and rogue. Some are overly specific or not interesting. I'd like to see these have an overhaul.

I think the druid needs a little more polish. It's not hopeless, but feels rougher than the fighter and rogue. Druids are one of my favourite classes, but I wouldn't play this one over the regular 5e druid. It's a start, and I do understand redoing spellcasters is more challenging.

 

[The Old Crow]

No the knacks feel really bad, take this easy example
Rogue climb related knack gives expertise on all athletics checks & a climb speed
View attachment 127568
Fighter climb related knack gives a climb speed, the option to spend exertion to reroll athletics when climbing, and you ignore nonmagical difficult terrain.
View attachment 127569
druid climb related knack gives a climb speed and an expertise die on athletics checks specifically limited to climbing(perhaps if you were using athletics rather than your climb speed to climb?) in comparison to the rogue's unrestrained athletics check expertise die, then it tops it all off with being "acclimated" to a situation likely to almost never come up in any game ever.
View attachment 127570

The others don't really feel like they hold a candle to their rogue/fighter counterpartsare generally feeling lacking. Compare te rogue's observer giving an expertise die on all perception checks & a +3 passive perception
View attachment 127571
to the druid's aerial surveyor also giving one expertise die to perception but limiting it to perception checks made from great heights or while flying without the passive perception bump making it worse in an extra way.
View attachment 127572


Eldritch survivor might actually be good depending on what the skills changes look like, but lets be honest & admit that some of that should be stuff nature should probably do by default from a druid given all the fluff & restrictions elsewhere trying to reinforce the fact that the druid is designed to interact with those things & stop the bad ones.
View attachment 127573

The expertise dice are a dramatic improvement over double proficiency, but unlike the rogue who has ability chains that can bump specific skill expertise dice the druid just has a chance at 3 to choose between a pair of potentially useful abilities or one of two others that give an expertise die on nature & animal handling respectively... Then their knacks include options that grant an expertise die on athletics checks (athletics is not even on the druid skill list!) needed to swim(lots of fish make those I bet?), an expertise die on athletics checks specifically to climb, an expertise die on whatever specifically when basically foraging for food. Part of the problem is that nature is generally a terrible skill & despite being a d8 medium armor divine caster like cleric who actually have archetypes to be a d8 heavy armor divine caster druid is still being punished for the sins of 3.5 CoDzilla* by actually being a d8 padded leather & hide divine caster & has everything under the sun (needlessly?)restricted in any way possible to make sure it doesn't get delusions of the past. without some details on the new spell list stuff or weapon & armor stuff we don't eve know how awful this is or if all of these seemingly needless restrictions are even warranted.

. * CoDzilla was the 3.5 term to summarize Cleric or Druid-(god)zilla, here's more on it

I feel like the Fighter knacks are worse, because the Fighter has to use an exertion die to get one reroll, while a Druid can reroll for free as often as they need.

 

[Faolyn]

well, on 3rd level we could add small animal, and on 5th level tiny animal.
I.E.
3rd level
small size:
-2 str/ +0 str for moon druid
speed: -10 ft for land and burrow speed/+0 speed for moon druids
damage: claws 1d3/1d4 moon druids
AC: 11+dex/ 12+dex moon druids

5th level:
tiny animal:
-4 str/ -2 str for moon druid
speed: -10ft land and climb speed/ +0 speed for moon druids
damage: bite 1d2/1d3 moon druids
AC:12+dex/13+dex moon druids

str/damage/AC bonuses/speed are all lower in my suggestion for all non-moon druids so they are not that good for combat.

Seems like those templates could both be available at 2nd level, since they're weak enough. Also, in 5e, templates don't seem to require math. Take a look at lycanthropes, where your Strength isn't increased by +4 or whatever; your Strength becomes 19. So what I'd do is something like:

Scampering Beast: You turn into a cat, squirrel, rabbit, chevrotain, badger, spider, fox, velociraptor compsognathus, or other small, relatively harmless beast. Your Strength becomes 6. Your Dexterity becomes 16, unless it was already higher. You become Tiny or Small (your choice). You have one attack, a bite or claw that inflicts 1 point of either piercing or slashing damage (your choice). Pick # of the following traits:

• Climb speed of 30
• Burrow speed of 10
• Super-Scamper: you can take the Dash action as a bonus action.
• Undergrowth Camouflage: you have advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks when you're not moving.
• Prey's Alertness: you have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks.
• Strong for your Size: Your bite or claw inflicts 5 (1d4+3) piercing or slashing damage.

At Higher Levels: When you reach 4th level and can change into a form that can swim, you can also become an otter, beaver, fish, or similar animal using this template.

Ungulate: You turn into a goat, riding horse, deer, cow, boar, hadrosaur, or other big herbivore (it doesn't actually have to be an ungulate). Your Strength becomes 17, unless it was already higher. Your walking speed increases by 20 feet, and you lose any other type of speeds. You become Medium or Large (your choice). You have one attack, a hoof attack that inflicts 8 (2d4+3) bludgeoning damage. Pick # of the following traits:

• Walking speed of 60 feet
• Horns: You have one or two horns, tusks, or a pair of antlers, and can make a gore attack with them, inflicting (1d6+3) piercing damage.
• Sure-Footed: You have advantage on Strength and Dexterity saving throws made against effects that would knock you prone.
• Beast of Burden: You are considered to be a one size larger for the purposes of determining your carrying capacity.
• Charge: If you move at least 20 feet straight towards a target and then hits it with a hoof or gore attack on the same turn, you inflict an extra 7 (2d6) damage.
• Secondary Attack: You can whack people with your tail or bite them with your strong teeth for (1d10+3) piercing or bludgeoning damage.

At Higher Levels: When you reach 4th level and can change into a form that can swim, you can also become a manatee, plesiosaur, or similar creature. You can also choose the following trait:

• Hold Breath: You can hold your breath for 1 hour.

And so on.

(Not that it matters, as I'm sure the LU team have their own vision of what to do, and this post is too large to stick in their survey. But I like the brainstorming.)

 

[Faolyn]

Rogue climb related knack gives expertise on all athletics checks & a climb speed

Fighter climb related knack gives a climb speed, the option to spend exertion to reroll athletics when climbing, and you ignore nonmagical difficult terrain.

druid climb related knack gives a climb speed and an expertise die on athletics checks specifically limited to climbing(perhaps if you were using athletics rather than your climb speed to climb?) in comparison to the rogue's unrestrained athletics check expertise die, then it tops it all off with being "acclimated" to a situation likely to almost never come up in any game ever.

This is why I precisely why I suggested in my initial that they simply have a chapter for knacks. Fighters, rangers, druids--whoever would logically get a climbing knack would have access to the same knack. No worry about one class getting a better version of the same ability.

And since it looks like there will be a lot of knacks available, combining them like this would not only save on space (no need to print three different versions of "can climb very well") but will also allow some of the knacks to be split up--it looks like we'll need more knacks than we're getting. "Can climb very well" doesn't necessarily have to be lumped with "can move through difficult terrain easily" or "is acclimated to high altitudes." A "Mountaineer" knack could include the expertise die when climbing and the acclimation to high elevations. A "Scrambler" knack could include the ability to move through difficult terrain, whether it's mountainous scree, broken badlands, or urban decay.

(athletics is not even on the druid skill list!)

No, but it's on both the 5e and LU Outlander background (i.e., standard Druid background). But yes, it's odd that Athletics isn't on their list--they're outdoorsfolks! They should be Athletic.

 

[tetrasodium]

No, but it's on both the 5e and LU Outlander background (i.e., standard Druid background). But yes, it's odd that Athletics isn't on their list--they're outdoorsfolks! They should be Athletic.

Even if they had athletics it would still be a poor knack because of how narrowly restricted that die is. The fact that they don't have it & it's still restricted even more than similar knacks for classes that do have it underscores how lacking the knack is since. I'm sure that fighter could potentially make some use of untrained arcana, but giving them a knack that gives them an expertise die in arcana is an equally confusing fit.

 

[Faolyn]

Even if they had athletics it would still be a poor knack because of how narrowly restricted that die is. The fact that they don't have it & it's still restricted even more than similar knacks for classes that do have it underscores how lacking the knack is since. I'm sure that fighter could potentially make some use of untrained arcana, but giving them a knack that gives them an expertise die in arcana is an equally confusing fit.

True. Unless they also plan on expanding the skills to make them more useful. LU seems dedicated to improving exploration, and they've done a lot with having skills be used with different attributes. Perhaps there's going to be a chapter on skill use, like the Xannie's expanded toolkits.

 

[tetrasodium]

True. Unless they also plan on expanding the skills to make them more useful. LU seems dedicated to improving exploration, and they've done a lot with having skills be used with different attributes. Perhaps there's going to be a chapter on skill use, like the Xannie's expanded toolkits.

I think rogue hits a good sweet spot where they have a lot of class features & knacks that focus on giving expertise dice to a couple skills whle adding new trappings to those skills expanding how they can be used for you or just giving powerful new features alongside that expertise die. (Cypher: expertise die deception+some stuff allowing deception to be used in new ways. distraction: expertise die on perform+ new way of using it. Veiled Threat: expertise die on intimidate+new way of using it. Tricky intimidation: expertise die on intimidate+powerful new way of using it. Quick frisk: expertise die on sleight of hand plus new ways of situationally using it to sub for investigate/perception/insight. Spot tell: expertise die on insight+powerful new way of using it. Costumer: expertise die on insight & opponents have disadvantage to see through it. True lie: expertise die on peruasion+new way of using it to sub for persuade. Walk it back: expertise die on deception+powerful new way of using it. Agie athlete: expertise die on athletics+climb speed. Boobytrapper: expertise die on sleight of hand+new way of using it. Delay Trap: expertise die on thieve's tools+new use for them... so on & so forth,). The druid class & knacks don't have that kind of "this is my skill niche & I will use it in ways you can't just from your background proficiency." You could blame some of that on the fact that druid skills are largely bottom of the barrel while rogue skills tend to be top shelf ones among skills, but doing that raises the question of why the addons that go with the expertise die on $skill knacks are so limited & so bad rather than stronger to make up for the bottom rack skills in other ways.

It would be a mistake to have a shared knacks chapter because then it means top shelf quality knacks need to be more limited to account for the fact that any cladss can get them rather than the class(es) they were designed for & you take them from a few cool options for your class to one or two must take options for everyone but this or that unlucky class..