Playtest (A5E) Level Up Playtest Document #4: Druid

Welcome to the fourth Level Up playtest document. This playtest contains a candidate for the first 10 levels of game’s druid class.

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Are you ready to level up your 5E game? Welcome to Level Up, the standalone 'advanced 5E' backwards compatible tabletop RPG coming in 2021!

A crunchier, more flexible version of the 5E ruleset which you know and love. If you love 5E but would like a little more depth to the ruleset, Level Up is the game for you!

What this is​

This is a playtest document. We’d love you to try out the rules presented here, and then answer the follow-up survey in a few days.

What this is not​

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[Morrus]

I think there's a lot to like about the A5E druid, esp Untamed Demeanor, Druidic Lore and Ferocity/Serenity, and I really like the concept behind the changes to Wild Shape and of the Exploration Knacks. It's maybe a little rougher round the edges than the other playtest releases, so hopefully open to some re-adjustments, and will need to be careful how each Circle fits. But what's got me really intrigued is this:

"You still retain the benefit of any features
from your class, destiny, or culture and can
use them if your wild shape is physically
capable of doing so."

What's a destiny? I don't think we've seen it before and it doesn't appear again, have I missed something? Are we in for some goodies after 10th level?

I was wondering if anybody would notice that!

 

[akr71]

I was wondering if anybody would notice that!

I noticed it, but I seem to recall you mentioning the term somewhere here or on twitter. I assumed it was something we'd learn more about later.

 

[NotAYakk]

Linking knacks to stuff like that could be cool & isn't bad but wildshape has two problems to be aware of. One is that they already get fly capable wildshapes at 5th or whatever so if it simply removed that & tied it to wildshape without further improving things it's literally making them weaker unless they spend a choice to be weaker elsewhere in lost opportunity cost in order to maintain the same strength there.

Yes, you wouldn't get "fly capable wildeshapes" by default if you tied knacks to wildeshapes or wildeshape capabilities.

---

As people have mentioned, the ability to pick any beast in the MM is a logistical headache.

Having a menu of known forms that grows with level is a minor limitation, but one that removes a headache.

I am arguing that we could tie exploration knacks to each form. So you both learn "raven" form, and you get a raven-related exploration knack, as one package.

Each form could have a minimum level (for CR purposes).

The moon druid would get both more forms, and higher-CR "combat" forms, at a given level. Those extra knacks would provide non-combat utility for the moon druid.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes, you wouldn't get "fly capable wildeshapes" by default if you tied knacks to wildeshapes or wildeshape capabilities.

---

As people have mentioned, the ability to pick any beast in the MM is a logistical headache.

Having a menu of known forms that grows with level is a minor limitation, but one that removes a headache.

I am arguing that we could tie exploration knacks to each form. So you both learn "raven" form, and you get a raven-related exploration knack, as one package.

Each form could have a minimum level (for CR purposes).

The moon druid would get both more forms, and higher-CR "combat" forms, at a given level. Those extra knacks would provide non-combat utility for the moon druid.

there are a few things wrong with that statement. I've seen people say their experience, mine included was that the headache you claim doesn't exist. Many enjoy the flexibility & don't find the "problem" you note to be a problem worth fixing any more than reducing spell choice for casters to simplify the wizard experience is something worth the effort to consider.

The idea of linking exploration knacks to an even more limited wildshape is absurd because other classes aren't giving up things from the core class to make a space for their knacks to simply exist. The druid knacks are decidedly weaksauce due to fluff supported mechanical restrictions that in some case are on top of an ability already poor in other ways as many commented on. Wildshape forms already have a min cr for both moon & non-moon druids based on a fraction of the druid level & weakening wildshape by taking away from it in order to give options to claw back some with knacks seems like an especially bad idea given how many comments mention how weak the druid seems absent other stuff that might be important but not yet ready.

 

[Faolyn]

"You still retain the benefit of any features
from your class, destiny, or culture and can
use them if your wild shape is physically
capable of doing so."

Good eye! I completely missed that. And now I'm intrigued.

 

[tetrasodium]

I now that it's been mentioned a few time that wildshape gies from recoverng uses n a long or short rest to recovering on a long rest. I feel like this has the potential for broader implications we can't judge yet.

• in stock 5e there are a few classes & multiclass combos that can o things like nova >nova>rest forcing the gm to invoke constant excuses, invisible walls, & doom clocks while things like the environmental hazards in ToA that restrict rests only apply to long rests to further skew the power towards short rest classes & away from long rest classes. This shift could be one of a couple things.
  • A:There is a deliberate effort to move away from that by linking the bulk of everyone's power to long rests.
    • In the case of A that can be compared to the fighter & rogue recovering exertion points for maneuvers on long & short rests but amid the obvious nerf in how hp in wildshape is changed & how "you can cast spells now but not these" limits the casting to almost nothing of value. Absent the spellcasting & equipment changes this certainly does not seem to be for the purpose of A because the possible scouting/possible transportation features added to wildshape during an average campaign are of fairly low value for a non-moon druid at best & the moon druid could already do that stuff. If these changes are intended to offset power gained through new equipment/spell changes we can't even guess if the results are reasonable, too much, targeting the wrong areas, or something else at this point.
  • B:This is a mistake
    • Mistakes happen, what's important is what comes next.
  • C:This is a deliberate nerf to correct some perceived imbalance.
    • Given the large number of new things like a narrowly restricted expertise die, generally lacking feel of knacks when compared to fighter/rogue knacks, nerf to wildshape hp handling & forms known, & limitation of what spells are currently castable in wildshape with the new "you can cast but not these" added to wildshape it's reasonable to worry that C is absolutely the goal. Since wildshape can't be used to nova even by a moon druid that takes a point away from A.

Whatever the case the fact that C is even plausible is extremely problematic for this version of druid.

 

[Faolyn]

• C:This is a deliberate nerf to correct some perceived imbalance.
  • Given the large number of new things like a narrowly restricted expertise die, generally lacking feel of knacks when compared to fighter/rogue knacks, nerf to wildshape hp handling & forms known, & limitation of what spells are currently castable in wildshape with the new "you can cast but not these" added to wildshape it's reasonable to worry that C is absolutely the goal. Since wildshape can't be used to nova even by a moon druid that takes a point away from A.

Whatever the case the fact that C is even plausible is extremely problematic for this version of druid.

Standard druids can't cast any spells in Wildshape until 20th level, so the fact that LU allows for even minimal spellcasting is a hit. However, th e spells that LU is allowing for wildshaped druids is rather odd. I can see why we probably don't want a wolf casting call lightning, though, but I feel like there should be a medium. Personally, I'd be fine with limiting it to self or touch spells and ignoring the restriction on inflicting damage or conditions.

I agree with you on the change from short rest to long. However, LU druids have a feature (Embraced Serenity) where you can exchange Wild Shapes for spell slots, which may be why they did that (instead of just to nerf the class). Personally, I don't like that ability--just give all druid's Natural Recovery, if you want them to be able to recover slots--and return Wildshapes to 2/short rest.

 

[tetrasodium]

Standard druids can't cast any spells in Wildshape until 20th level, so the fact that LU allows for even minimal spellcasting is a hit. However, th e spells that LU is allowing for wildshaped druids is rather odd. I can see why we probably don't want a wolf casting call lightning, though, but I feel like there should be a medium. Personally, I'd be fine with limiting it to self or touch spells and ignoring the restriction on inflicting damage or conditions.

Don't get me wrong, it's unquestionably an improvement that looks great at first glance but look at the spells it actually allows them to cast & things change fast. It lets them cast spells limited to "spells with a range of Self or Touch, and you can’t cast spells that deal damage or inflict conditions."

Spoiler: every single druid spell meeting those conditions

• Cantrips
  • Guidance
  • Magic stone: Granted you can't use them but you can be a bird on your bud's shoulder providing them magic stones?
  • Mending
  • Resistance
  • You could make an argument that you could cast shillelagh on a friend like magic stone since technically the spell s enhancing their weapon not dealing damage. But that' a massive stretch because it does "deal damage" remotely
• 1st level spells
  • Absorb Elements
  • Cure Wounds
  • Goodberry
  • Jump
  • Longstrider
  • Speak with animals
• 2nd level spells
  • Barkskin
  • Beast Sense
  • Darkvision
  • Enhance Ability
  • Gust of Wind
  • Lesser restoration
  • Locate animals & plants
  • Locate object
  • Pass without trace
  • Protection from Poison
• 3rd level spells
  • Feign Death
  • Meld into stone
  • Protection from energy
  • Speak with plants
• 4th level spells
  • Freedom of movement
  • Locate Creature
  • Stoneshape
  • Stoneskin
• 5th level spells
  • Awaken
  • Commune with nature
  • Greater restoration
  • Reincarnate
  • scrying
  • Tree stride
• 6th level spells
  • Find the path
  • Druid Grove
• 7th level spells
  • Planeshift
  • Regenerate
• 8th level spells
  • NONE
• 9th level spells
  • Foresight
  • Shapechange
  • True Resurection

The uses for those are minimal at best when paired with even the improved wildshape for land druids. For a moon druid it's not especially different & light years from making up for the massive nerfs wildshape takes elsewhere. Druid is a complex class with different isolated components that combined make up the core of the class. Restrictions intended to prevent the return of CoDzilla must be put in place as a part of a thought out rather than balanced in isolation as if no other component has any restrictions. It doesn't matter that druids in this form can cast some spells simply because almost none of those spells even rise to the level of mattering even slightly enough to be worth taking wildshape to cast & the edge cases where one might need to unexpectedly cast it while in wildshape are extremely slim even if the druid in question has the perfect spell prepared

I agree with you on the change from short rest to long. However, LU druids have a feature (Embraced Serenity) where you can exchange Wild Shapes for spell slots, which may be why they did that (instead of just to nerf the class). Personally, I don't like that ability--just give all druid's Natural Recovery, if you want them to be able to recover slots--and return Wildshapes to 2/short rest.

That's fine & all but that sort of thing should come with careful "let me make sure wildshape is improved elsewhere to make up for this" & the hit point changes alone should have been a flashing light visible from orbit. We don't know what the new spell list, equipment, & so on will eventually look like; but we do know that the current druid without those things makes the likely A:C ratio troubling

edit: The range: self or touch alone filters out a huge number of spells that would otherwise meet the requirements. Those spells might not make it meaningful improvement but at least they might occasionally be useful enough to remember it can be done.

 

[Imogen Claydon1]

I personally dont get the issue with phb ws its no more of a headache than polymorph as its not a pick and choose form but a form that youve already seen. Also lower cr than polymorph in most cases. I see phb ws as a natural version of the spell. Lu version im still to be sold on. I like how you gain uses but not liking the long rest part and if you really want to go the thp route (which i beleive makes it a lot less usefull)it should be a flat amount and not a rolled amount. In my groups even a moon druids higher cr dsnt really last too long (mainly because of the really bad ac i guess). Ive been knocked out of ws in just 1 round of combat which was 1 on 1 fight against a npc swashbuckler (cr3)and me in cave bear form