Leveless d20 . . .
- Thread starter Sir Elton
- Start date
Li Shenron
Legend
You can easily play levelless without changing very much in the d20 mechanics. Just don't give Xp to the characters (or give them only for item creation) and always play at level 1 
Ghostknight
First Post
I've been thinking along these lines and have a broad idea on how to go about doing it (but have no details yet!)
Extract each item of a character, so HD, casting levels, skills, save bonuses, BAB etc. Assign an XP value to them. As charcaters advance they use their xp to buy advances in what they want.
So lets for argument sake say that a BAB +1 costs 100xp, caster level 1 costs 100xp, d4 hp costs 25 xp, d6 hp costs 50xp, d8 75xp, d10 100xp, d12 125 xp, d4 + d4 80, each starting skill 50 xp, each starting feat 100xp. A character starts with 500 xp- he now spends those for his starting package and spends xp gained as he advances in level to purchase additional skills/skill advances, etc. Under this system you could theoretically have that wizard tossing meteor swarms with only 1d4 hp, or maybe with 20d12 hp, BAB +20 and caster level 18!
Ok, it needs a lot of wor (and how to calculate the raising increases for HD, caster levels, feats etc so that at a similar xp spend to normal d20 the characters are comparable, but under this far more customised to the players vision without the need for prestige classes!)
Extract each item of a character, so HD, casting levels, skills, save bonuses, BAB etc. Assign an XP value to them. As charcaters advance they use their xp to buy advances in what they want.
So lets for argument sake say that a BAB +1 costs 100xp, caster level 1 costs 100xp, d4 hp costs 25 xp, d6 hp costs 50xp, d8 75xp, d10 100xp, d12 125 xp, d4 + d4 80, each starting skill 50 xp, each starting feat 100xp. A character starts with 500 xp- he now spends those for his starting package and spends xp gained as he advances in level to purchase additional skills/skill advances, etc. Under this system you could theoretically have that wizard tossing meteor swarms with only 1d4 hp, or maybe with 20d12 hp, BAB +20 and caster level 18!
Ok, it needs a lot of wor (and how to calculate the raising increases for HD, caster levels, feats etc so that at a similar xp spend to normal d20 the characters are comparable, but under this far more customised to the players vision without the need for prestige classes!)
GrumpyOldMan
First Post
Like others here, I've never been much of a rules tinkerer. Why not find a system you like, rather than tinker with one that's giving you problems.
If you want class-less, level-less and a mechanic based on the roll of a d20, you must be sidling uncertainly towards Pendragon. There are a huge number of class and level-free games out there. They are, frankly, all I play. Both Pendragon and RuneQuest (BRP) have methods to keep heroic characters.
Of course you could always go all the way and do away with Hit Points too! HârnMaster can do it, of course, if you do that you'll end up with a game where players avoid combat, which may not be what you want.
GOM
If you want class-less, level-less and a mechanic based on the roll of a d20, you must be sidling uncertainly towards Pendragon. There are a huge number of class and level-free games out there. They are, frankly, all I play. Both Pendragon and RuneQuest (BRP) have methods to keep heroic characters.
Of course you could always go all the way and do away with Hit Points too! HârnMaster can do it, of course, if you do that you'll end up with a game where players avoid combat, which may not be what you want.
GOM
Ghostknight
First Post
GrumpyOldMan said:
Because it is funto see how far you can take something? Also, their is a lot of material available for d20. So if you can tweak it to what you want within the bounds of the system you still can access all the additional material.
Also, I enjoy tinkering! Heh, maybe I should try to write a system instead of just tweaking somebody elses, but that is such a huge labour to take on that I take the lazy way out- tinkering!
Ghostknight said:
I currently working on a similar system where class abilities and feats are replaced by skills. It's still under work and I want to revamp the combat system a bit. However, I keep track of level just to have an idea of the "power level" of each character. In that system, a lvl 20 fighter could still be (although very luckily) killed in a single shot by a commoner. I want to have optional rules to allow more "heroic" play (i.e. having a 20 lvl fighter taking many 1 HD foes without much hindrances). I still have to determine skills points costs for each ability. I'm a bit inspired by the d20 modern system. My goal is to have a system in which only a d20 is rolled (i.e. damages are determined with a d20 and different weapons gives different bonuses according to it's original dice etc).
DarkMaster
First Post
D20 D&D doesn't do that already. If you open up a bit Coup de Grace a commoner can easily kill a 20 lvl figther drinking at the bar shooting with a crossbow in his back. Obviously given that the fighter didn't spot or heard him before.Bastoche said:
And the 8 fighter in my campaign can takes care of many 1 HD foes without much hindrances.
DarkMaster said:
My major gripe with d20 D&D is the overlap of damage reduction (I previously stated "hardness", I meant damage reduction), hit points and armor class. I think they should all be regrouped in the same category.
Also, another side gripe is the counterintuitive abstract system. I've no problem with an abstract system per se but the level of "abstracticy" is such that some situations are difficult to handle on the spot.
I also have a significant issue with the concept of refex save vs dodge AC bonus. Hit points are a form of dodge, Dex to ac and ref save is, damage reduction is another, etc. I think all matters of "dodging" things should follow a single mechanic that could be all regrouped in a defense bonus-like system rather than a mix of reflex saves, abstract hit point system and dex/dodge bonuses.
Another thing I dislike about D&D is the real-world time it takes to go through an encounter. So my goal is to add a level of conplexity to reach a bit more realism. Once you've hit, you've hit end of story. It would give a more cinetatic feel to combat.
At the same time, I wish to get a system that would be balanced on all levels. So any level of magic would not hinder balance (in other words, for example balance the wizard to the fighter with each of them not having any magic items and create balanced items for each class).
It's still not very clear how it will turn out and if it is at all possible, but it doesn't cost anything to try (except maybe time
)I know there's other systems out there that already does that sort of things and I know exactly what game I would like to play. Problem is, my fellow players are deep rooted into d20/D&D so having a similar system with a different feel would do the trick. Furthermore, my goal is to create a system that would allow us to easily convert current D&D games to such a system. There would be basic rules that would allow the players to play an heroic high magic forgotten realms campaign and some easy to add optional rule that would lead the style of play from highly heroic high magic to low magic grim'n'gritty style of play. Under development...
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