log in or register to remove this ad

 

D&D 5E Levels 1-4 are "Training Wheels?"

Lyxen

Great Old One
Yes, in the sense that (a) I find these levels far far more tedious than challenging,

And of course, playing D&D is supposed to be a challenge.

If you're going to make claims of this nature, provide the statistics. Otherwise, stop acting like you know any better than anyone else here what the preferences of players are.

Man, just check out the various polls about the levels people play at, it's not hard, for example here: 90% of games stop by level 10, so if you start at level 5, it does not give you that wide a range. Or here: "It turns out that most players never reach beyond level five."

See also here for the favourite level to start playing, 85% prefer to start at level 1.

So no, I don't claim to know better than everyone, but I certainly claim to know better than you. But if you don't believe me, provide data, or start your own poll.
 

log in or register to remove this ad



Lyxen

Great Old One
Given the number of posters in this thread who explicitly said that's something they want, yes.

Yeah, right, wasn't it you who said "Forum polls are not useful statistics", and it's not even a poll ? Are you even going to tell people that playing D&D without a challenge is wrong ?

As for the rest: Forum polls are not useful statistics, and you know this already.

First, it's still better than your personal opinion, and second, if you had read, two of the articles are actually based on DDB data, which is for at least tens of thousands of players. So, you're wrong. Deal with it.
 


Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
This whole idea that first level PCs drop like flies and can't have interesting adventures is just odd to me. My rate of PCs dying is pretty steady across all levels - it's based on how dangerous a game the players want. Yes, there are things like revivify and raise dead at higher levels, but at higher levels it's not that hard to ensure the body is not available.

The adventures are different, but it just means that low level PCs can't rely on spells or abilities to solve problems. They have to rely on wits and planning, and knowing when to run. Even though my campaigns typically go to 20, I personally find low levels more fun and meaningful. 🤷‍♂️
 



loverdrive

Makin' cool stuff (She/Her)
This whole idea that first level PCs drop like flies and can't have interesting adventures is just odd to me. My rate of PCs dying is pretty steady across all levels - it's based on how dangerous a game the players want.
I don't think that there's any other point in the game where enemies of appropriate CR can one-shot PCs like it's no one's business. Also, hazards.

Pretty much all hazards in the DMG table can at least down a lvl 1 PC, even something as trivial as "Burned by coals, hit by a falling bookcase, pricked by a poison needle".
 

Don't know about "training wheels", but it's pretty much a different game. But, well, D&D, at least, 5E is like five different games stitched into one:
  • Ridiculously deadly lvl 1
  • Low-power, gritty lvls 2-4
  • John Wick-tier lvls 5-10
  • Batman-tier lvls 11-16
  • WTF IS GOING ON?!-tier lvls 17+
Sure. And I think this is a good thing. I really see not point in the sort of levelling where the numbers just get bigger but nothing substantial changes.
 

loverdrive

Makin' cool stuff (She/Her)
Sure. And I think this is a good thing. I really see not point in the sort of levelling where the numbers just get bigger but nothing substantial changes.
I also think this is a good thing, as WotC-era D&D is pretty much the only game that can give me that ridiculous power curve.

But levelling up ain't just bigger numbers, though. At least, it doesn't have to be -- many games have meaningful horizontal progression without making previous threats laughably trivial later in the game.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
Whether it's supposed to be a challenge depends on player preference. But I have never met nor heard of any player who preferred it to be tedious.

And what does tediousness have to do with challenges ? It's a roleplaying game, so yes, maybe some people will find just the absence of story and meaningful NPCs tedious. Again, there are many playstyles, and challenges are not mandatory to have fun.
 

Mezuka

Explorer
The first two levels are like a horror game, but not as deadly as they used to be. You level up after only one short adventure, you get all HPs after a night sleep and you get three death saves.

I've always started my D&D at level 3 since the middle of 2e. Excepts 4e as the PCs were more robust.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
I don't think that there's any other point in the game where enemies of appropriate CR can one-shot PCs like it's no one's business. Also, hazards.

Pretty much all hazards in the DMG table can at least down a lvl 1 PC, even something as trivial as "Burned by coals, hit by a falling bookcase, pricked by a poison needle".
Which just means you can't just say "I do something stupid because I can take the damage".
 


loverdrive

Makin' cool stuff (She/Her)
Which just means you can't just say "I do something stupid because I can take the damage".
Yeah, but the amount of stupid things you can get away with is real small at lvl 1. At, say, lvl 5, you'll die if you piss off a lich. At lvl 1, you'll probably die, if you piss off like five bandits. All in all, liches are far less common than bandits.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
True.
But it can be slayed at level 4 so, according to you, level 4 d&d is real d&d :)
It can be slain if you are lucky or powergame. But Venomfang is intended to chicken out after being scratched.

If you fully or partially engage without powergaming it deals ~21 damage a turn vs AC 17 and has a 42 damage breath weapon.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
To be clear, there's nothing wrong with starting at a higher level. I just don't think the low level game is inherently bad, deadly, tedious or boring. The game is what you make of it.
I agree. Low levels isn't bad or boring.

But I also agree with the OP's friend that that full game doesn't start until level 5.
 

It can be slain if you are lucky or powergame. But Venomfang is intended to chicken out after being scratched.

If you fully or partially engage without powergaming it deals ~21 damage a turn vs AC 17 and has a 42 damage breath weapon.
Venomfang is slayed on a regular basis by pregen level 4 characters. No powergaming here ;) when your theory don't match the facts, change the theory not the facts :)
And by the way White & Black dragons are weaker than Green dragons : if Venomfang is killable, Cryovain is even more so.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Yeah, but the amount of stupid things you can get away with is real small at lvl 1. At, say, lvl 5, you'll die if you piss off a lich. At lvl 1, you'll probably die, if you piss off like five bandits. All in all, liches are far less common than bandits.
So ... don't piss off the bandits. Set up traps, pick them off one by one, divide and conquer. Maybe just gather Intel for the town guard.

At level 5, it's no guarantee in my games that pissing off the bandits will work for the PCs either.
 

Level Up!

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top