D&D 5E Life Cleric Multiclass armor prof

[Eejit]

This not only gets heavy armor but also doesn't need the MC statt requirements for the heavy armor class

Actually you do. You need the MC stat requirements for your current as well as new classes.

There are reasons you might want a heavy armor dip later than 1 - e.g. you want the saving throw proficiencies from a different class.

 

[Li Shenron]

It would have been so much simpler if multiclass characters would get:

- best armor and weapon proficiencies from all classes
- as many skill proficiencies as the classes which gives the higher number
- just the two save proficiencies from the first class (anyway everybody gets 2, so it makes sense a multiclass PC also gets 2 - higher level bonus save profs are still gained later)

With these, the rules are much simpler, and you have no quantitative differences between multiclass PCs created with a different class order (there is only a qualitative difference in having different save profs, but at least they all get 2).

In my opinion the only possible concern is indeed with armor, since AC is a major differentiating stat between classes. And I can imagine that the designers were soo scared of a Wizard dipping into one Fighter-type level to get all armor profs. But it's them who decided that Wizard can cast in armor in 5e, and also that armor proficiency must be the most expensive to gain (see related feats).

Still I don't see why this is considered so critical, that complicated rules are necessary to prevent it. It's only a big deal for characters with wildly different proficiencies (zero vs all armors). And why isn't then also a big deal that a Fighter can easily dip into one Wizard level to get a good amount of spells known at once?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

But that feature has a different condition (you be 1st level or higher), the other one is pretty specific (you pick the domain when you are first level)

I don't buy your thinking in the least, but even if I did, as others have stated, the War and Tempest (and Nature!) domains would still have this problem. All simply say, "At 1st level." In fact, the only features that would be affected by your reading are the Life Cleric's armor, the Light Cleric's extra cantrip, and the Trickery Cleric's Blessing of the Trickster. Given that it only solves the "problem" of one out of the four problematic subclasses, while weirdly shafting two other subclasses, I feel like your reading creates more problems than it solves, and doesn't even actually solve the problem it claims to.

 

[Mirtek]

Actually you do. You need the MC stat requirements for your current as well as new classes.

Ups, you're right. Still, just start as first level fighter, grap heavy armor prof and prof in con save. And a few level in your primary class later go back and take fighter 2 for action surge

 

[Li Shenron]

I really don't see the issue here. Anybody who wants to level dip for heavy armor starts in the heavy armor class at level 1 and the starts taking his real class at levels 2-20. This not only gets heavy armor but also doesn't need the MC statt requirements for the heavy armor class

So who cares if taking life cleric at level 2 also gives you heavy armor Prof, when taking it at level 1 allows you to do it with 8 wis and gain the prof?

Exactly... this is a typical case of rules complications meant to fix/prevent a problem, creating other problems, and not fixing the first one at all.

The Fighter-dipping "Wizard in full armor" is still very much possible. Basically the only combo that this rules prevent is "heavy armor & six skills" adventurer, a notoriously broken character?

 

[leonardoraele]

When you multiclass, you only gain the extra proficiencies that are listed in the Multiclassing rules (PHB p.164). If you multiclass into any kind of cleric, you only gain light armour, medium armour, and shields. Not heavy armour.

Wrong. Heavy armor proficiency is a 1st-level feature for clerics of life domain, so yes, you get heavy armor prof. as a wizard 19/cleric 1, for instance. (as long as you choose life, nature, war or tempest domain)

 

[Celtavian]

The problem with that reading is that the next feature of the Life Cleric, Disciple of Life, says:

Also starting at first level, your healing spells are more effective.

So if your reading is the correct one, you also do not gain the other feature.

We all know those abilities go by class level, not character level. If you went down that rabbit whole, you could apply that logic to every class so when it says "at 6th level" you could argue they never actually were 6th level if they chose the to multiclass at 8th character level and didn't get the ability until 14th character level. If you're going to try to argue that logic, better to ban multiclassing if you don't like the effects.

 

[BoldItalic]

Wrong. Heavy armor proficiency is a 1st-level feature for clerics of life domain, so yes, you get heavy armor prof. as a wizard 19/cleric 1, for instance. (as long as you choose life, nature, war or tempest domain)

No, I'm not wrong. Just 'differently correct'.

"When you choose this domain at first level ..."

I read that to mean "at first character level". If it meant "at first level of cleric" there would have been no need to qualify it. They could have just written "When you choose this domain" and left it at that.

But, as usual, "It's up to your DM." If the DM is me, the answer is "no"; if the DM is you, the answer is evidently "yes" and that's fine by me. But don't tell me I'm flatly wrong, because that's just plain rude.

You may wish to apologize for your dogmatic statement.

 

[BoldItalic]

The problem with that reading is that the next feature of the Life Cleric, Disciple of Life, says:

Also starting at first level, your healing spells are more effective.

So if your reading is the correct one, you also do not gain the other feature.

I'm not convinced by that argument. Multiclassing has specific rules relating to proficiencies that beat the more general class rules. For all other class features, apart from four specific cases, multiclassing rules explicitly say that you do indeed get them. So you would get the other class features notwithstanding. It's just proficiencies that are restricted (but with wording is open to interpretation, which is why we are having this discussion).

Seems to me that it boils down to: Life Cleric Heavy Armor Proficency is

• A proficiency, so you don't get it, or
• A class feature, so you do get it

I've posted this on twitter.

@JeremyECrawford Multi into Life Cleric: gets heavy armor proficiency? Forum debate. "No, it's a proficiency" vs "Yes, it's a class feature"

I'll report back if I get a reply.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

No, I'm not wrong. Just 'differently correct'.

"When you choose this domain at first level ..."

I read that to mean "at first character level". If it meant "at first level of cleric" there would have been no need to qualify it. They could have just written "When you choose this domain" and left it at that.

But, as usual, "It's up to your DM." If the DM is me, the answer is "no"; if the DM is you, the answer is evidently "yes" and that's fine by me. But don't tell me I'm flatly wrong, because that's just plain rude.

You may wish to apologize for your dogmatic statement.

You may be "differently correct" about Life, but, as stated, none of the three other domains which provide Heavy proficiency (War, Tempest, Nature) would be affected by that reading--in fact, they would be further entrenched. Whereas, again as stated, the Trickery and Light domains would lose meaningful but much smaller benefits. There would also be ripple-out effects for a number of other classes: Barbarians (Berserker loses Frenzy; Totem Warrior loses Totem Spirit), Bard (Lore loses the three bonus skills; Valor loses Medium armor, shields, and martial weapons), Druid (Land loses a bonus cantrip; Moon loses Combat Wild Shape), Fighter (Champion loses Improved Critical; Battlemaster loses Combat Superiority), Monk (Open Hand loses Open Hand Technique; Shadow loses Shadow Arts; Four Elements loses Disciple of the Elements), Paladin (all Oaths lose their Channel Divinity features), Rogue (Assassins lose the Disguise Kit and Poisoner's Kit proficiencies), Sorcerer (Wild no longer triggers Wild Surges), and Wizard (all Wizard schools lose the "memorization time/gold costs halved" feature).

Some of these are especially bad--the Battlemaster (you don't get maneuvers at Fighter 3) and all Monk traditions (you can't spend ki on spells/Open Hand effects) are completely neutered, while the Wild Sorcerer loses its main "twist." There's also the unnecessary and weird nerfs, like taking the extra 3 skills from people who MC to get Lore Bard. Is it really worthwhile to fix 1 out of 4 problematic Cleric subclasses, when by doing so you make MCing into 19/38 subclasses wonky or even outright broken? Arguing that "starting at level N, when you choose this subclass" (or equivalents) = "only at character level N, not if you multiclass" causes a lot of problems while failing to even fix the majority of the problem it's addressing.

I think it's quite telling, actually, to compare Life Cleric to Tempest Cleric, or Battlemaster Fighter to Eldritch Knight Fighter. Both types of Cleric give essentially identical "Bonus Proficiency" benefits, except that Life uses the "When you choose this domain at 1st level..." phrasing, while Tempest uses simply the "At 1st level..." phrasing. Also, I only say "essentially" identical because Tempest gives another proficiency (martial weapons) that Life doesn't. Both types of Fighter provide the core feature that makes them different from other Fighters at Fighter 3, but the Battlemaster's maneuvers/dice/DC/etc. opens with "When you choose this archetype at 3rd level..." while the EK's spells opens with "When you reach 3rd level..."

Given that the majority of the game's subclasses lose something, and some lose a very important something, I don't actually consider your reading "differently correct." It carries far too many complications for me, while only "fixing" a single subclass in the bargain. Much better, and simpler, to just say "characters who multiclass into Cleric do not receive bonus Heavy armor proficiency, regardless of their listed Domain features." That keeps the rule isolated to the only class that causes this problem, fixes all the subclasses rather than only one of four, and remains a simple rule to follow.