Light Armour Optimisation--a Little Too Much?

[IcyCool]

With respect to the balance in armours, it's more that the mechanics are wonky than anything else--you won't see something like that come out of the core rules or splatbooks. Frankly, just flat giving +1 AC +1 Max Dex would be better than the current rules in that sense, though admittedly stronger for Studded Leather, nonmithral Chain Shirt, and MBP wearers.

Actually, since the Dex Bonus breaks the feat if it happens and should be rare anyway, it won't hurt anyone except the abusers if the feat was changed to a flat +1 to armour bonus to AC -1 ACP. That would be better in a tremendous way.

If the LEW community wants it changed, then let it be changed!

I just don't think there is anything wrong with it as is.

But if it is going to change, then I'd like to point out the concern Bront brought up earlier. That is, they get the armor bonus even when paralyzed or sleeping. My original intent with these feats was that they remove penalties for wearing armor, and the armor bonus was really there because I noticed that effectively half of the feat was being wasted once the ACP reached 0. I suppose I could have increased the Max Dex by one instead of the Armor bonus by one...

Thoughts?

 

[Velmont]

If the LEW community wants it changed, then let it be changed!

I just don't think there is anything wrong with it as is.

But if it is going to change, then I'd like to point out the concern Bront brought up earlier. That is, they get the armor bonus even when paralyzed or sleeping. My original intent with these feats was that they remove penalties for wearing armor, and the armor bonus was really there because I noticed that effectively half of the feat was being wasted once the ACP reached 0. I suppose I could have increased the Max Dex by one instead of the Armor bonus by one...

Thoughts?

I have a suggestion. I see that bonus as a kind of dodge bonus. It is not only how you wear the armor, but how you move to take advanatge of the armor. So, you might lose this optimzation bonus every time you lose your dodge bonus, but as it come from an optimal use of the armor, you also use it against touch attack. So optimzation bonus count toward full AC, but not on Flat-Footed or touch AC. So it make this AC bonus interesting, as in most combat, it will still be usefull, but it is a bonus which is easy to lose too (against a touch attack or a feint).

Optimization bonus

An optimization bonus come from an optimal use of an item. When an optimization bonus is applied on an armor or shield, you lose the bonus anytime you would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC, as you can't move to do an optimize use of your armor and shield. As you need your armor or shield to take advanatge of this bonus, it doesn't count toward you touch AC.

 

[Rystil Arden]

And therein lies the rub, doesn't it? I think +1 Dodge against all opponents vs. +1 armor against all opponents is superior, and the restrictions of the Dodge feat (+1 Dodge against one opponent) brings that down to equal footing with +1 armor against all.

Which is why my thread in the Rules Forum where ~47/50 people disagree with you, some vehemently, is important. It may be an opinion, but what I really think it is is a measure of eccentricity of your game, as this statement is really either true or false depending on your game. And in almost 95% of games, your statement is wrong.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Wow, by curiosity, I've been looking at Vanitri... that neckalce you haev, nice magical item... and it surely make you one, if not THE richer character of LEW, as it worth 20k. Rinaldo is jealous.

I was thinking of having Rinaldo be the merchant who dealt with the other item Vanitri found that he sold to a Medibarian merchant who sold to an Orussusian merchant, but then I realised you probably didn't want Rinaldo's wife dead, so I made up my own merchant. Not to worry, this is a fun necklace

 

[IcyCool]

Which is why my thread in the Rules Forum where ~47/50 people disagree with you, some vehemently, is important. It may be an opinion, but what I really think it is is a measure of eccentricity of your game, as this statement is really either true or false depending on your game. And in almost 95% of games, your statement is wrong.

Come now, we both know that isn't a completely true statement. In 95% (a little less than that because of bookkeeping, but still a majority) of games that those 50 people have been involved in, my opinion is in the minority. It's not a wrong statement, it's a difference of opinion. And opinion, yours or mine, is not fact. I would have been more comfortable with it had you run that poll here in LEW, but thems the breaks.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Come now, we both know that isn't a completely true statement. In 95% (a little less than that because of bookkeeping, but still a majority) of games that those 50 people have been involved in, my opinion is in the minority. It's not a wrong statement, it's a difference of opinion. And opinion, yours or mine, is not fact. I would have been more comfortable with it had you run that poll here in LEW, but thems the breaks.

Admittedly, we may have had some polled subjects who gave the incorrect answer due to opinion bias, but mathematically, there actually is a correct answer for each campaign that could be determined by a supercomputer objectively. I'd like to think that most people selected the correct one when they polled.

 

[Bront]

My apologies. There were several items in your statements that I wanted to address individually, and it made the most sense to quote the item, and then address it. In the future, would you prefer me to quote full paragraphs, or the entire post? I ask because I don't think I've ever been accused of that behavior before.

I'm sorry you feel that I'm picking your arguements apart out of context. Please show me where I did that, and I will go back in my post and "fully quote" the arguement.

If I havent' picked apart one of your arguements out of context, then I'm not sure why you bring this up?

It was just one or two places where you pulled a sentance out of a paragraph. Paragraphs are fine. It was more an issue of me having to go back to my origional post several times to figure out why I said that, which means to me it was out of context. Looks like you didn't do it intentionaly, so no biggie

I did this one separately intentionaly btw

 

[Bront]

Wow, by curiosity, I've been looking at Vanitri... that neckalce you haev, nice magical item... and it surely make you one, if not THE richer character of LEW, as it worth 20k. Rinaldo is jealous.

Should be worth...4+6+6=16K. Yeah, it's nice, and oddly ill suited for Vanitri, though the +1 to his will save could be a life saver. It's a better item for a caster, but he's not likely to give it up for cheep. I'm kicking myself for loosing the nexus and book though.

 

[Bront]

Am I the only one with the opinion that not everyone takes Mithril armors? Rystil makes the claim that these people don't care about thier AC, you aren't making the same claim, are you?

No, there is no Heavy Armor Optimization feat (I didn't include them because I wasn't sure if Races of Stone would become available at some point). The speed issue was brought up about a month or two after the feats were approved, and no one appeared to care enough to change it, so it has remained in error.

The Mithril Question? Yes, in general, anyone interested in wearing light armor will get Mithril chain or a Mithril Breastplate, and those that don't have either found a way around it, or gotten some kind of magic item that has made it a questionable decision. In general, light armor wearers tend to be played where: A) Higher dex, so the max might matter. B) Lower strength, so encumberance may matter. C) Have abilities that don't function in heavier armors (be it skills where the ACP causes problems, or abilities like the Ranger, Bard, or Barbarian).

Reasons to not wear Mithril:
A) Magic item found that makes the benifits not worth it (Actualy, hard to do, since you can get it enchanted again, so you're talking near artifact levels, likely not an issue in LEW)

B) Adamantine functions better (usually a heavy armor issue)

c) Didn't know about Mithril (new players fall here)

D) Mithril not available in campaign world. (not an LEW issue)

Now, I won't say that they don't care about AC if they don't have it, but there are almost no cases where Mithril is a bad idea.

As for the HAO, yeah, no big deal. And I can fix the MAO issue next time i get a chance (it's an acutal rules error, so no voting needed).

Just a note, MAO is slightly underpowered compared to the "Dash" feat, which I believe lets you increase your movement by 5' flat (or in all but heavy armor). It's in the CV I think. However, that's not realy an issue since it's not an available feat.

Some of the suggestions here may make the feat better, and I think LAO realy is problematic in that it is better on some armors (Leather and Mithril Chain specificly) than others.

 

[IcyCool]

Reasons to not wear Mithril:
A) Magic item found that makes the benifits not worth it (Actualy, hard to do, since you can get it enchanted again, so you're talking near artifact levels, likely not an issue in LEW)

B) Adamantine functions better (usually a heavy armor issue)

c) Didn't know about Mithril (new players fall here)

D) Mithril not available in campaign world. (not an LEW issue)

E) You don't have the Dex to take advantage of the increased Max Dex, and the reduction in weight isn't a big deal.

Just a note, MAO is slightly underpowered compared to the "Dash" feat, which I believe lets you increase your movement by 5' flat (or in all but heavy armor). It's in the CV I think. However, that's not realy an issue since it's not an available feat.

Dash gives you a flat 5' movement bonus, and allows you to make a single 90 degree turn in a charge (and also maybe a run), and is useable by anyone (medium armor or no). It can be taken once. MAO lessens the speed penalty by 5' on medium armors and also lessens the ACP. It can be taken once, but can be followed up by GMAO. Both feats are beneficial only to people in medium armor.

Some of the suggestions here may make the feat better, and I think LAO realy is problematic in that it is better on some armors (Leather and Mithril Chain specificly) than others.

Any feat dealing with armor will automatically be better when used with Mithril armor.