Light Armour Optimisation--a Little Too Much?

[IcyCool]

Huh? I would have thought it obvious that if you took Light Armour Optimisation, then you aren't someone who doesn't wear any armour.

So why are you comparing it with Dodge? (I'm assuming you understand why your comparison is flawed, but if that is not the case, I'll break it down for you very simply).

I only find it interesting because you've chosen to abandon what I think is the only defensible point of the feat (which is "hopefully nobody hits 24 Dex and breaks it").

Hoping something doesn't get "broken" is hardly defensible. It's true that a significant majority of LEW characters are unlikely to get a Dex that high, however.

By choosing to abandon that, I honestly dont' see how you can possibly claim that a +1 Dodge bonus to AC against a single target can even remotely stand up against a +1 extra Dex bonus (equivalent to the Dodge bonus) added to a +1 extra armour bonus, both against all targets.

It's conditional. Let me break it down.

1. Dodge is equally useful to everyone with a 13+ Dex (armored, unarmored, spellcaster, or no). LAO is only useful to people wearing Light Armor.

2. Dodge is the entry feat into the spring attack feat chain. LAO leads to GLAO.

3. In the instance that a character with LAO is wearing armor that gets the increased Max Dex and has the Dexterity to take advantage of that, LAO is superior to Dodge.

4. In the instance that a character with LAO is wearing armor that gets the increased Max Dex but does not have the Dexterity to take advantage of that, LAO is not superior to Dodge. Edit - I value a Touch AC increase more than an Armor bonus increase. (Removed waffling opinion).

Would it fix the analogy for you if I added "Must be wielding a weapon" to the requirements of Brutish Power Attack and "Must carry a spellbook" to Smartypants Spell Focus?

Either you truly are ignorant of the differences in Dodge and LAO, or you know the differences and are being purposely obtuse? (Honestly confused as to how you can think your comparisons are accurate?) Edit - I'm not calling you names here, just genuinely confused. Maybe it's something else that I'm missing. Your analogy (we'll use the power attack one) would be fixed if:

1. The power attack feat gave you a flat +1 bonus to damage against one opponent using any form of attack (weapon, spell, etc.)

2. Your weapon had a limit to how much of your Strength bonus you could add to the damage your weapon dealt.

3. The brutal power attack feat added +1 subdual damage to your normal damage, and upped the allowed Strength bonus to damage by 1 point.

Honestly, if you would be okay with those two feats of mine, I'll at least be satisfied that I understand your thinking here.

If was not clear by now, I am not ok with your feats. And neither am I ok with your comparisons. Hopefully my explanations are clearer this time around. If not, I shall try to explain better next time.

 

[IcyCool]

Ok, I'm going to do an example of why LAO is better than dodge using Vanitri, who currently has Dodge.

Vanitri has a Mithril Chain Shirt, and a Dex of 16. He uses 2 weapons, so no shield, and he does not have two weapon defense yet.

Vanitri with Dodge:
AC = 10 + 4 AC + 3 Dex = 17, 18 vs 1 target with dodge.

Vanitri with LAO:
AC = 10 + 5 AC + 3 Dex = 18 vs All Targets

At 12th level, his Dex could be 18 naturaly, and he could afford a +6 Dex item. So, with those two things (ignoring other bonuses that could be equal in both builds)

12th Vanitri with Dodge:
AC = 10 + 4 AC + 6 Dex = 20, 21 vs 1 target with dodge.

12th Vanitri with LAO:
AC = 10 + 5 AC + 7 Dex = 22 vs All Targets

You are ignoring something. And it is why I think these feats are valid as is. Allow me to insert them:

Vanitri has a Mithril Chain Shirt, and a Dex of 16. He uses 2 weapons, so no shield, and he does not have two weapon defense yet.

Vanitri with Dodge:
AC = 10 + 4 AC + 3 Dex = 17, 18 vs 1 target with dodge.
Touch AC = 14 vs 1 target with dodge.
Can start Spring Attack Feat Chain

Vanitri with LAO:
AC = 10 + 5 AC + 3 Dex = 18 vs All Targets
Touch AC = 13 vs All Targets
Cannot start Spring Attack Feat Chain (without taking Dodge)

At 12th level, his Dex could be 18 naturaly, and he could afford a +6 Dex item. So, with those two things (ignoring other bonuses that could be equal in both builds)

12th Vanitri with Dodge:
AC = 10 + 4 AC + 6 Dex = 20, 21 vs 1 target with dodge.
Touch AC = 17 vs 1 target with dodge
Can start Spring Attack Feat Chain

12th Vanitri with LAO:
AC = 10 + 5 AC + 7 Dex = 22 vs All Targets
Touch AC = 17 vs All Targets
Cannot start Spring Attack Feat Chain (without taking Dodge)

 

[IcyCool]

Rystil, you ignored my question in post #21.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Rystil, you ignored my question in post #21.

The top one is missing 2 touch AC and has a -2 to all attacks. Plus they had to take Fighter or a feat. All in all, it's an incredibly poor choice, and if you want a Tower Shield, you should be combining the two for even 2 more AC and going full turtle

 

[Rystil Arden]

1. Dodge is equally useful to everyone with a 13+ Dex (armored, unarmored, spellcaster, or no). LAO is only useful to people wearing Light Armor.

There is a big problem with this though, and this is the heart of your misunderstanding the comparisons with my new feats that you aren't okay with. Why does Mobility give +4 to AC? Because it is only against AoOs. AoOs will be only some of the attacks against you. That is a fine way to balance a feat. However, your feat is not a fine way to balance because unlike with Mobility, while your feat may not work for all characters some of the time, it works for some characters all of the time. This is similar to a Mobility that says "If you have Combat Reflexes also, you get +4 to AC against all attacks" or "If you wear light armour, you get +4 to AC against all attacks". This is not ever an effective way to balance a more-powerful feat unless you can demonstrably prove that the option you need to be using is a weaker option that needs buffing. Light armour wearing is not.

2. Dodge is the entry feat into the spring attack feat chain. LAO leads to GLAO.

Correct. And LAO and GLAO are so much more powerful than normal for the right character that for someone who is benefiting from them, leading to GLAO is far superior than the rest of the chain after Dodge. Seriously, Spring Attack is a terribly weak option in most situations. This is at least a wash, at best an advantage for LAO.

3. In the instance that a character with LAO is wearing armor that gets the increased Max Dex and has the Dexterity to take advantage of that, LAO is superior to Dodge.

Not just superior--far far far superior. Much more superior to Dodge than my new feats you don't approve of are to their base feats.

4. In the instance that a character with LAO is wearing armor that gets the increased Max Dex but does not have the Dexterity to take advantage of that, LAO is not superior to Dodge. Edit - I value a Touch AC increase more than an Armor bonus increase. (Removed waffling opinion).

This is almost correct. LAO is still better because +1 Armour vs all targets is still superior to +1 Dodge to one target by far. That's why I said your only defensible stance is that hopefully it won't be broken because nobody will get 24 Dex. Of course, above you agree with me that this isn't really a valid argument, so why make it down here?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Either you truly are ignorant of the differences in Dodge and LAO, or you know the differences and are being purposely obtuse? (Honestly confused as to how you can think your comparisons are accurate?) Edit - I'm not calling you names here, just genuinely confused. Maybe it's something else that I'm missing. Your analogy (we'll use the power attack one) would be fixed if:

1. The power attack feat gave you a flat +1 bonus to damage against one opponent using any form of attack (weapon, spell, etc.)

2. Your weapon had a limit to how much of your Strength bonus you could add to the damage your weapon dealt.

3. The brutal power attack feat added +1 subdual damage to your normal damage, and upped the allowed Strength bonus to damage by 1 point.

If was not clear by now, I am not ok with your feats. And neither am I ok with your comparisons. Hopefully my explanations are clearer this time around. If not, I shall try to explain better next time.

Actually, you are indeed calling me names here, as you've left me with an either/or fallacy between being ignorant or trying to lie to make your feat look worse I choose neither--you are ignoring the point of the new feats I made. You've nitpicked to claim that no comparison can be made between any feats and your feat unless they are exactly the same feat moved into a different ability score and roll structure. I disagree--it is patently untrue that they can't be compared.

To help here, I'll actually weaken Smarty-Pants Spell Focus again (it was already weaker compared to Spell Focus than LAO is compared to Dodge). Here goes (The theme in the edit is to show you why you can't claim that an obvious choice for someone taking the feat (for instance, light armour is an obvious choice for anyone taking the LAO feat) can possibly balance making it stronger than the existing feat) :

Vaarsuvius's Spell Focus:
Benefit: Choose a school of magic. If that school is Evocation, add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against spells from the school of magic you select. Otherwise, you get nothing.

Special: You also gain an additional +1 bonus to DC if you have 24 or higher Int and the school you chose was Evocation.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Assuming you disagree with the new feat, let's break it down step by step to show why VSF is weaker compared to SF than LAO is compared to Dodge:

Dodge vs LAO / SF vs VSF:

1) Dodge leads to new fairly-marginal feats that some people might possibly want but most people don't. LAO leads to GLAO, which you'll obviously want if you bought LAO and have the feat to spend on it.

SF leads to fairly-useful related feats. VSF leads to nothing.

So in part 1, LAO is better compared to Dodge than VSF is compared to SF.

2) If you fail to choose Light Armour, which is a no-brainer choice for any lightly-armoured character (unless you randomly want to be worse) that costs you nothing, LAO gives you nothing. If you fail to choose the Evocation school for this feat, which is a no-brainer choice that costs you nothing if you wanted this feat, VSF gives you nothing.

Tie.

3) If you have lower than 24 Dex, Dodge gives you +1 Dodge bonus to AC against one target and LAO gives you +1 Armour bonus against all targets, so LAO is better. If you have lower than 24 Int, SF gives you +1 to DC and so does VSF, so they are equal.

Again LAO is better compared to Dodge than VSF compared to SF.

4) If you have at least 24 Dex, LAO gives you a +1 Armour and +1 Dodge bonus to AC against all targets and Dodge gives you a +1 Dodge bonus against only one target. If you have at least 24 Int, VSF gives you +2 DC and SF gives you +1 DC.

Again, LAO is better compared to Dodge than VSF compared to SF.

Consensus--LAO is better compared to Dodge than VSF compared to SF.

 

[IcyCool]

The top one is missing 2 touch AC and has a -2 to all attacks. Plus they had to take Fighter or a feat. All in all, it's an incredibly poor choice, and if you want a Tower Shield, you should be combining the two for even 2 more AC and going full turtle

I disagree that it is a poor choice. (Keep in mind that you can use the tower shield for cover). And if you combined the two, you'd get +1 to AC (Tower Shields have a +2 Max Dex). But I guess this is more a matter of opinion.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I disagree that it is a poor choice. (Keep in mind that you can use the tower shield for cover). And if you combined the two, you'd get +1 to AC (Tower Shields have a +2 Max Dex). But I guess this is more a matter of opinion.

Mithral Tower Shield

 

[IcyCool]

This is not ever an effective way to balance a more-powerful feat unless you can demonstrably prove that the option you need to be using is a weaker option that needs buffing.

I shall inform the creators of Weapon Focus, so that they may correct their onerous balance issue immediately.

Correct. And LAO and GLAO are so much more powerful than normal for the right character that for someone who is benefiting from them, leading to GLAO is far superior than the rest of the chain after Dodge. Seriously, Spring Attack is a terribly weak option in most situations. This is at least a wash, at best an advantage for LAO.

This one boils down to opinion, I guess. I, for one, feel that being able to strike your foe while not subjecting yourself to a full attack (or Aoo from that foe) is far superior to a couple of points of AC.

Not just superior--far far far superior. Much more superior to Dodge than my new feats you don't approve of are to their base feats.

+1 more armor bonus is "far far far superior"? I find that humorous at best, but again, I guess it is a matter of opinion.

This is almost correct. LAO is still better because +1 Armour vs all targets is still superior to +1 Dodge to one target by far.

Opinion, and one I do not share, obviously.

Of course, above you agree with me that this isn't really a valid argument, so why make it down here?

I don't see where I did, could you please point out where I did?