Light Armour Optimisation--a Little Too Much?

[IcyCool]

Yes, I actually am saying this.

I disagree, strongly. Perhaps you are assuming that the only way a character cares about AC is if he is trying to optimize it?

1. Fullplate + Tower Shield +13 Dex = +13 AC, before enhancement (oh, and he can use dodge, btw).

2. Mithral Fullplate + Heavy Shield + 16 Dex = +13 AC, before enhancement (also able to use dodge).

How is the first option "not caring about AC"?

 

[IcyCool]

Rystil, it sounds like you feel strongly enough about this that you want it changed. Just because I disagree, that shouldn't stop you. By all means, put up a proposal to change it. I'll oppose it, of course, but if it is so obviously broken, it should get changed pretty quickly despite my protests. Be sure to check out the Medium Armor Optimization feats as well.

I'm out for the weekend. Have a good one.

 

[Rystil Arden]

(Just a note, I'm knocking off work early today (in about an hour), and I have very little interent access on the weekends. I'll be sure to pick this up on Monday though, I'm sure I won't convince you in an hour.

Well, Dodge is better for folks who don't wear armor. That's the only major thing that jumps to mind, aside from the fact that Dodge leads to a very favorable feat chain, but I have to have that hand tied behind my back, so...

Huh? I would have thought it obvious that if you took Light Armour Optimisation, then you aren't someone who doesn't wear any armour. Similarly, Spell Focus: Conjuration is better than my proposed feat for Conjurers who don't use spells that have a saving throw.

I only find it interesting because you've chosen to abandon what I think is the only defensible point of the feat (which is "hopefully nobody hits 24 Dex and breaks it"). By choosing to abandon that, I honestly dont' see how you can possibly claim that a +1 Dodge bonus to AC against a single target can even remotely stand up against a +1 extra Dex bonus (equivalent to the Dodge bonus) added to a +1 extra armour bonus, both against all targets. It is flatly superior in two ways (way #1: the bonus is +2 and not +1. way #2: the bonus applies to all targets, not just a single target). Now that I see that there wasn't something obvious I was missing in the wording, I'm somewhat confused. I really don't want to believe that you're just being contrary when you claim that

Your feats are simply Spell Focus and Power Attack with extras added on. If you can't see how that is different from LAO and Dodge, I'm not sure what to say.

but I can't see how it can stand. I'm really trying to find where the comparison fails (LAO is, in essence, Dodge with even more extras added on), and it seems that the only possibility is that LAO requires you to use light armour, which you were going to wear anyway. Would it fix the analogy for you if I added "Must be wielding a weapon" to the requirements of Brutish Power Attack and "Must carry a spellbook" to Smartypants Spell Focus? Honestly, if you would be okay with those two feats of mine, I'll at least be satisfied that I understand your thinking here. I may not agree with the design choice (although I've seen professional designers do similar things, so I may not be right!), but I'll understand it. But since you don't seem to accept those two, I'm a bit befuddled.

 

[Bront]

Ok, I'm going to do an example of why LAO is better than dodge using Vanitri, who currently has Dodge.

Vanitri has a Mithril Chain Shirt, and a Dex of 16. He uses 2 weapons, so no shield, and he does not have two weapon defense yet.

Vanitri with Dodge:
AC = 10 + 4 AC + 3 Dex = 17, 18 vs 1 target with dodge.

Vanitri with LAO:
AC = 10 + 5 AC + 3 Dex = 18 vs All Targets

At 12th level, his Dex could be 18 naturaly, and he could afford a +6 Dex item. So, with those two things (ignoring other bonuses that could be equal in both builds)

12th Vanitri with Dodge:
AC = 10 + 4 AC + 6 Dex = 20, 21 vs 1 target with dodge.

12th Vanitri with LAO:
AC = 10 + 5 AC + 7 Dex = 22 vs All Targets

Now, all that is needed to fix the feat is simply removing the condition of increasing the AC of the Armor if the ACP is already at 0. In that case, it would be superior to dodge IF, and only if, the dex was higher than the max dex bonus of the armor, but you would have to be an armor wearer, and at that point you have to deal with weight, expense, and, the point that dodge still gives you access to a fairly usefull set of feats.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I agree completely with Bront--he's given you an actual example with exactly the numbers I've mentioned.

 

[Velmont]

I think why the +1AC have been put there it is because a feat that gives +1 to max dex and -1 to ACP is a beat weak for someone who wear light armor, because it is not so easy to have Dex 24 except if you become a Dex monster, and ACP on a light armor is generally becoming 0 quickly in the career of a PC.

Removing the +1 AC is not a bad thing, but I would change it for something else, not to make the feat useless... what? welll.... I'll think about it. Does anyone have that feat presently?

 

[Rystil Arden]

I think why the +1AC have been put there it is because a feat that gives +1 to max dex and -1 to ACP is a beat weak for someone who wear light armor, because it is not so easy to have Dex 24 except if you become a Dex monster, and ACP on a light armor is generally becoming 0 quickly in the career of a PC.

Removing the +1 AC is not a bad thing, but I would change it for something else, not to make the feat useless... what? welll.... I'll think about it. Does anyone have that feat presently?

I don't it would make the feat useless. It would be a balanced choice with Dodge--you take in different circumstances for certain character types (it is great early-term for the ACP removal and late-term for the Max Dex boost)

 

[Velmont]

I don't it would make the feat useless. It would be a balanced choice with Dodge--you take in different circumstances for certain character types (it is great early-term for the ACP removal and late-term for the Max Dex boost)

I don't see that ACP so good, and at level 2, you would quickly have a masterwork armor, so only the chainshirt, mw would be affected by that (and if you want a chainshirt, you will surely move to Mithral Chain Shirt anyway). The Max dex can be usefull only if you are a dex monster.

With the +1AC, I agree you make Dodge a bit obsolete and the only reason for a light armor wearer to take it is he need it as a pre-requisit for another feat. but removing it and not giving something else, you just end with a feat that will haev so little use that.

Here a suggestion, someone with armor optimization could add +1 bonus to his AC while in total defence, over the +1 Max Dex and -1 ACP.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I don't see that ACP so good, and at level 2, you would quickly have a masterwork armor, so only the chainshirt, mw would be affected by that (and if you want a chainshirt, you will surely move to Mithral Chain Shirt anyway). The Max dex can be usefull only if you are a dex monster.

With the +1AC, I agree you make Dodge a bit obsolete and the only reason for a light armor wearer to take it is he need it as a pre-requisit for another feat. but removing it and not giving something else, you just end with a feat that will haev so little use that.

Here a suggestion, someone with armor optimization could add +1 bonus to his AC while in total defence, over the +1 Max Dex and -1 ACP.

The +1 AC for Full Defense is fine, I'll agree with that one (only because it will rarely come up, so it meets the conditionality test). Just don't also give the bonus while Fighting Defensively.

 

[Bront]

I think why the +1AC have been put there it is because a feat that gives +1 to max dex and -1 to ACP is a beat weak for someone who wear light armor, because it is not so easy to have Dex 24 except if you become a Dex monster, and ACP on a light armor is generally becoming 0 quickly in the career of a PC.

Removing the +1 AC is not a bad thing, but I would change it for something else, not to make the feat useless... what? welll.... I'll think about it. Does anyone have that feat presently?

Look at my example, in the 12th level version, if it was a choice between dodge and LAO, LAO is better, but before that, it's not. It's marginal, but it is there.

Also, it's with all light armor. So a 1st level character who gets it could wear studded leather as if it was normal leather, which is quite useful (the -1 ACP being a big deal then), or an elf or halfling with a 20 dex wear Light Chain (not Mithril) and get the full dex benifit out of it (and have a lower ACP to boot). That sounds like a perfectly balanced feat with dodge to me.