Light Armour Optimisation--a Little Too Much?

[Rystil Arden]

Continued from Armour for Wizards--

 

[Rystil Arden]

So, your issue with it lies in the Dex bonus? If a character has a 24 Dex, a feat to blow for Light Armor Op, and money for a Mithril Chain Shirt, then they get full benefit of the Light Armor Op feat (Which is to say, +1 AC (which doesn't apply to touch AC, but does apply to all attacking opponents) over a character with 22 Dex, Dodge, and a MCS).

My issue lies in the fact that it gives both a Max Dex increase and an AC increase. Basically, raising the Max Dex is meaningless unless you do have that kind of Dex, but if you do have it, then it makes the feat way too strong. And this isn't a conditional like "+2 AC against critical confirm rolls". This is an either or thing that is usually going to always be true or false. So in essence, what we actually have is another feat entirely (I use Mithral Chain Shirt as the example because it is already more-or-less the most popular armour in the game, overall, and this feat works best for it anyway):

Mithral Chain Shirt Optimisation
Requirements: Light Armour Proficiency, +1 BAB, Dex 24+
Effects: As long as you wear Mithral Chain Shirt, you gain a +1 increase to both your Armour Bonus to AC and your Dex bonus to AC for a total of +2 AC

Improved Mithral Chain Shirt Optimisation
Requirements: Mithral Chain Shirt Optimisation, Dex 26+
Effects: The effects of Mithral Chain Shirt Optimisation are doubled.

 

[Bront]

I agree. I like the feat, but the little note to increase the AC if the Armor Check Penalty is already at 0 seems a bit excessive.

However, I would like to hear Icycool's thoughts on the feat first before I say anything more.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I agree that it would not be overpowered for LEW if that note disappeared. Instead, it would provide you the ability to wear different sorts of light armour with almost no ACP in the short-term and then let you wear Mithral Breastplate with it in the long-term, plus open up to getting a +1 additional AC with Mithral Breastplate at 22 Dex (which is likely to be the character's Dex somewhere around level 8 considering our Point Buy here).

 

[IcyCool]

Mithral Chain Shirt Optimisation
Requirements: Light Armour Proficiency, +1 BAB, Dex 24+
Effects: As long as you wear Mithral Chain Shirt, you gain a +1 increase to both your Armour Bonus to AC and your Dex bonus to AC for a total of +2 AC

The effect of that feat is to get you a +1 increase in armor bonus. The additional +1 to your Dex bonus does nothing, as the maximum dex bonus of the Mithral Chain Shirt is still only +6. I understand what you were going for, but you worded it poorly.

Until a character with Light Armor Op (and the silly high dex of 24) has +5 armor, all that is really happening is that he saves on the cost of +1 to his armor, or doesn't need to have the party buffer cast an armor boosting spell.

 

[Erekose13]

Reposted for reference

Light Armor Optimization [General]
Through focused training and practice, you are able to get more benefit out of light armor.
Prerequisites: Armor Proficiency (Light), BAB +1
Benefit: When wearing light armor, increase its Max Dex bonus by 1 and decrease its Armor Check penalty by 1. Increase the Armor bonus of the armor by 1 instead of reducing the Armor Check penalty if this reduction would reduce the penalty below 0.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as one of his bonus feats. Medium armor made of mithril counts as light armor for the purpose of interacting with this feat.
-Created by IcyCool

Greater Light Armor Optimization [General]
Through focused training and practice, you are able to get more benefit out of light armor.
Prerequisites: Armor Proficiency (Light), Light Armor Optimization, BAB +3
Benefit: When wearing light armor, increase its Max Dex bonus by 1 and decrease its Armor Check penalty by 1. Increase the Armor bonus of the armor by 1 instead of reducing the Armor Check penalty if this reduction would reduce the penalty below 0. These reductions and bonuses are cumulative with (stack with) those granted by Light Armor Optimization.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as one of his bonus feats. Medium armor made of mithril counts as light armor for the purpose of interacting with this feat.
-Created by IcyCool​

 

[Rystil Arden]

The effect of that feat is to get you a +1 increase in armor bonus. The additional +1 to your Dex bonus does nothing, as the maximum dex bonus of the Mithral Chain Shirt is still only +6. I understand what you were going for, but you worded it poorly.

Until a character with Light Armor Op (and the silly high dex of 24) has +5 armor, all that is really happening is that he saves on the cost of +1 to his armor, or doesn't need to have the party buffer cast an armor boosting spell.

Fine, call the second +1 a Dodge bonus.

As to the second part of your post, all I can say is huh? You claim that the feat isn't overpowered because it 'only' saves you money on buying the magic item that does the same thing (even though it stacks with said item). By that logic, a feat that gives you a +2 (unnamed so fully stackable) bonus to Strength is balanced because it saves you the cost of a +2 Belt of Strength or having the party buffer cast Bull's Strength

 

[IcyCool]

As to the second part of your post, all I can say is huh? You claim that the feat isn't overpowered because it 'only' saves you money on buying the magic item that does the same thing (even though it stacks with said item). By that logic, a feat that gives you a +2 (unnamed so fully stackable) bonus to Strength is balanced because it saves you the cost of a +2 Belt of Strength or having the party buffer cast Bull's Strength

No need to get snippy, I'm not trying to rain on your parade.

The second part of my post was there to illustrate just when a character gets to truly take advantage of the "overpowered" part of the feat. Sorry if that wasn't clear to you.

 

[Rystil Arden]

No need to get snippy, I'm not trying to rain on your parade.

The second part of my post was there to illustrate just when a character gets to truly take advantage of the "overpowered" part of the feat. Sorry if that wasn't clear to you.

Not trying to be snippy, so apologies if I came off that way. I'm just seriously confused by the logic you used--not like sarcastically saying I'm confused, honestly confused. I'm just wondering basically what I asked above: are you saying that a feat is balanced so long as it creates an effect that can be attained by a magic item, even if it also stacks with the magic item?

 

[IcyCool]

Not trying to be snippy, so apologies if I came off that way. I'm just seriously confused by the logic you used--not like sarcastically saying I'm confused, honestly confused. I'm just wondering basically what I asked above: are you saying that a feat is balanced so long as it creates an effect that can be attained by a magic item, even if it also stacks with the magic item?

My mistake, tone is difficult at best to judge in this medium.

My statement above was simply observing at what point the feat appears to become "overpowered" in your opinion. It was making no judgement or statement about the "power" of the feat.

I don't personally buy your arguement that it is overpowered. Do you feel that the feat would be "balanced" if it did not include the note to increase the armor value after the armor check was reduced to 0? If so, the feat becomes mostly pointless for anything but a Mithral Chain shirt. I wasn't trying to make a "Mithral Chain Shirt Op" feat, I was trying to make a "Light Armor Op" feat. One that all light armors benefit from.

I also don't buy the assertion that Mithral Chain Shirt is the most popular armor. Certainly, for characters with an 18+ Dex it is a good choice (not necessarily optimal). But I'd be surprised if the majority of characters had a dex that high. Where did you get this information?