D&D 5E (2014) Light release schedule: More harm than good?

[HobbitFan]

*snip* I'll delete that rant for now.

nevermind...I'll think on this and come back to the thread when i have soemthing to actually say.

 

[Nellisir]

I wonder if the OGL could solve this issue. The problem is, we don't want the "Wall of Books" scaring away folks. Ok, fair enough. Why not add something to the new OGL (or whatever it's called) that states that the cover of your 3pp has to clearly state that this is not official material? Something that clearly marks it as "Optional" and not part of the core game. That would solve the problem wouldn't it? Those that want the rules, can get them, and those that don't can easily ignore them.

You end up with basically the reverse problem of a light release. Want psionics? Here are four different systems. Monsters? A thousand the first year. Eight different shadow wizards, all slightly different and slightly overlapping.

So a small percentage buys the 3PP stuff, and everyone else waits for an "official" (WotC) version.

I really don't think over-production of 3PP print material is going to be an issue this time around, and the bloat problem was never about WotC + 3PP except for the very early years of 3e; when we're talking about bloat, we're really talking about just WotC. 4e obviously didn't have 3PP problems.

 

[Shasarak]

D&D has a couple of accidents of history that prolonged the life of one or two of its editions. The Lorraine Williams takeover of TSR almost certainly delayed the release of 2E, which Gary Gygax was beginning to consider at the time. Meanwhile, the bankruptcy of TSR also delayed work on 3E! (Which likely wouldn't have been like what we got).

D&D has a couple of accidents of history that prolonged the life of one or two of its editions. The Lorraine Williams takeover of TSR almost certainly delayed the release of 2E, which Gary Gygax was beginning to consider at the time. Meanwhile, the bankruptcy of TSR also delayed work on 3E! (Which likely wouldn't have been like what we got).

Cheers!

If Gygax had produced 2e in 1985 instead of being ousted then 1e would have been going for 8 years.

If TSR had produced 3e in 1997 instead of being purchased by WotC then 2e would have been going for 8 years.

So even if the edition life cycle had been extended then they would still have had a good solid shelf life.

 

[Hussar]

If Gygax had produced 2e in 1985 instead of being ousted then 1e would have been going for 8 years.

If TSR had produced 3e in 1997 instead of being purchased by WotC then 2e would have been going for 8 years.

So even if the edition life cycle had been extended then they would still have had a good solid shelf life.

But, is it though? Is eight years (or even ten) a good solid shelf life?

If you look at other hobbies, things that are replaced every ten years aren't really considered to have a great shelf life. Boardgames to revamp their rules every ten years, at least, not the popular ones. Even at ten years, we're still talking about spending about 20% of the lifespan of an edition building the next edition. It generally takes two or three years to produce a new edition. So, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions of dollars, being sunk every ten years to come out with the next edition.

Is it worth it? I don't know. I honestly have no idea. But, I'd be a lot more comfortable if we had twenty year gaps between editions. That we could have a stable game for a couple of decades before getting a new one.

 

[Shasarak]

But, is it though? Is eight years (or even ten) a good solid shelf life?

It is just a hypothetical 8 years. In reality it is more then that.

 

[Bluenose]

I imagine this is a legal issue that's being gone over with a fine tooth comb/tied up in red tape at the corporate level because of the success of Paizo.

Are Paizo, by the standards by which WotC and especially Hasbro judge, a success? It seems equally possible that the reason the legal issues involved haven't been resolved is that they aren't important enough to be a priority.

 

[delericho]

Just spitballing, but, what if they did an OGL with a 10 year limit? Say that the license is good until 2026 (if it came out in 2016) with the option of being renewed. Would publishers go for it?

I don't know. Rationally, WotC should have no concern about someone replicating what Paizo did (because nobody can). Rationally, a third-party publisher should consider a 10-year license to be as good as 'forever' (since most sales happen pretty much right away). But then, rationally, anyone capable of making any meaningful money doing third-party D&D products should really go spend the time making much more money doing other things.

My gut feeling is that at this point anything less than the OGL will be seen as underwhelming and will see little use. (That said, I suspect even the OGL would see little more use than it already does.) And I can't see WotC using the OGL - at the very least, they'll want some sort of "communities standards" clauses added (to allow them to block 'problematic' content).

It seems equally possible that the reason the legal issues involved haven't been resolved is that they aren't important enough to be a priority.

This would be my take as well. A third-party license is very much a nice-to-have for us, but it won't bring in any money (directly) to Hasbro, so it's less important than other things. And that's even assuming that the faction within WotC that are pro-OGL won the argument convincingly - if the anti-OGL faction still has influence they may well fight it even against the (D&D team) management position.

 

[Hussar]

I was thinking about it this way:

WOTC continues to focus on its Organised Play stuff - with the two "big tent" releases per year.

It then bangs out an OGL for those of us who want extra stuff. The OGL material will be clearly labeled that it is not compatible with Organised play, but is perfectly fine for home use.

Wouldn't that be the best of both worlds? Now WOTC doesn't really produce any supplements at all - just a bare minimum per year, but those of us who want supplements, can now buy them from someone else. Win win all the way around.

 

[delericho]

I was thinking about it this way:

WOTC continues to focus on its Organised Play stuff - with the two "big tent" releases per year. It then bangs out an OGL for those of us who want extra stuff.

Wouldn't that be the best of both worlds?

Quite possibly. It's certainly a good plan. But then, if everyone acted rationally then most of us would eat a lot more vegetables and a lot less sugar.

 

[BryonD]

But, is it though? Is eight years (or even ten) a good solid shelf life?

Yes.

If you look at other hobbies, things that are replaced every ten years aren't really considered to have a great shelf life. Boardgames to revamp their rules every ten years, at least, not the popular ones.

First, so what?
Why are you implying that board games are in any way relevant? I like board games, though I am definitely not a board game gamer. I own quite a few and the reality is that my copy of 7 Wonders has been played twice, Elritch Horror a handful of times, etc....

But they are not the same. The experience is not the same and my expectations is not the same.

Saying that RPGs should have the same shelf life as board games is, to me, akin to saying that comic books should be published as often as novels. Do we really need another Batman story when Gandalf is still doing well after all these years?

Even at ten years, we're still talking about spending about 20% of the lifespan of an edition building the next edition. It generally takes two or three years to produce a new edition. So, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions of dollars, being sunk every ten years to come out with the next edition.

Is it worth it? I don't know. I honestly have no idea. But, I'd be a lot more comfortable if we had twenty year gaps between editions. That we could have a stable game for a couple of decades before getting a new one.

What percentage of board games are still in print 10 years later?

Who many versions of Monopoly exist? How many versions of clue?
You mentioned Settlers of Catan upthread and I was going to tease you with a question about your acceptance of Star Trek 5E. I look on amazon and see that I can buy Settlers of Catan, 4th edition. That is an edition every 5 years. (and we already established that any change is seen by some as a reboot)
Plus
the 5-6 player "expansion"
Rivals of Catan
Catan: seafarers
Cities and Knights
Traders and Barbarians
Explorers and Pirates
Junior
(and Star Trek)

How many versions of Ticket to Ride exist?

What game both continues to exist in print with steady sales, for 10+ years, and has ZERO revisions and ZERO expansions or alternative versions?