Limitations of Bronze

[SWBaxter]

Any thoughts on this. Looks like I'll be cooking up a new equipment list for players unique to the setting.

Look for "From Stone to Steel", very useful for this sort of thing. Spears and maces are probably going to be the main weapons of most bronze age cultures, and they won't be dramatically less effective than steel versions of same.

 

[tarchon]

I can agree with lowering the hardness. But I wouldn't increase the weight at all. Weapon weights are and have always been completely whacked in D&D. No one who has ever actually used a hand weapon would pick one that had a D&D rated weight. I also think how bronze performs will depend on the weapon type. A blunt weapon made from bronze is going to function pretty much the same as an iron version. That D&D thinks iron and steel is the same is also vastly silly...

Bronze of the same volume as iron weighs around 10% more - you just can't argue against density. Practically speaking it also has to be much thicker to get the same stiffness. The factor required to match iron is pretty ridiculous (only has ~1/2 the shear modulus) http://www.efunda.com/materials/common_matl/Common_Matl.cfm?MatlPhase=Solid&MatlProp=Mechanical, so in reality, it just isn't going to happen, thus I figured there'd be maybe a 10% factor for that before they just gave up and accepted the basic weakness, giving about a 20% penalty. Looking at historical bronze weapons, the increased weight per length seems to typically be similar to that estimate, around 20% to 30%, so a 1/4 penalty is probably reasonable.
A typical sword historical sword weight seems to come in at around 2-3 pounds (http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/shield_and_weapon_weights.html), so I don't think the 3.5 SRD is really that far off. 2 lbs for a rapier or shortsword, 4 lbs for a longsword (heavyish, but I don't know how "long" they mean it to be), 1 lb for a dagger. Given that D&D sword weights are given in 1 lb. increments, the bronze weight penalty is probably too small to really tip the scales though.

 

[drothgery]

Then the rules should call them "Encumberance Weights" rather than just list them as weights. A twelve pound greatsword my fuzzy white...

An 8 lb greatsword is still too heavy, but that's what the 3.5 PHB says; 3.x still has overweight weapons, but 3e, and especially 3.5, are far better than prior editions on this.

 

[A'koss]

An 8 lb greatsword is still too heavy, but that's what the 3.5 PHB says; 3.x still has overweight weapons, but 3e, and especially 3.5, are far better than prior editions on this.

I haven't looked too closely at 3.5e's weapon weights (I've been using my own chart for years) but I can see they are slowly becoming closer to their real world counterparts. An 8 lb. greatsword for example is definitely not unreasonable IRL, but many of their other weights are still on the high side - a 6 lb. bastard sword for example or a 4 lb. longsword... still too heavy.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Then the rules should call them "Encumberance Weights" rather than just list them as weights. A twelve pound greatsword my fuzzy white...

Yeah, theres a note in the 1e DMG about it. And people say 3e is so great.

 

[Angcuru]

I don't know about the limit to the amount of damage a weapon can deal before being repaired. While it makes sense, if you do this I would expect you to apply the rule to every one of your games, with variations on the rules depending on the metals in use.

In retrospect, Bronze isn't that great. Back in the Bronze Age, bronze was a technological marvel. Simply becuase it isn't as good as what you're used to in normal D&D doesn't mean it isn't good at all. The durability of the weapon should not effect its performance other than withstanding damage. A bronze dagger will put a hole in your neck just as easily as an iron dagger, for the same amount of time. Factor in armor, and the iron dagger has an advantage in durability.

I wouldn't apply a whole new set of rules and give yourself a headache over this. Just rule that the most advanced armor available is Breastplate and Large Shields, and you don't find weapons with bronze components much larger than a shortsword, or a spearhead. Do that, and you're set.

 

[Emirikol]

I did a lot of research on the subject for our CONAN D&D campaign. The metallurgical sites online detail pretty well that bronze can be made harder and more durable than dark age steel, but it weighs a bit more (say 10% for game purposes). Steel is definately a better metal in the most modern sense, but in a fantasy world anything is possible.

Personally, I would just say, "Do you want it bronze or steel? They're both the same, but the color is different."

jh

 

[tarchon]

I did a lot of research on the subject for our CONAN D&D campaign. The metallurgical sites online detail pretty well that bronze can be made harder and more durable than dark age steel, but it weighs a bit more (say 10% for game purposes).

Yeah, if you want to bring phosphorous bronze, aluminum bronze, etc. into it, but you'd have to compare bronze with exclusively modern metallurgy to steel with period metallurgy.

 

[Krieg]

Apparently a classic D&D weapon - the longsword - won't exist in such a setting. (and by extension rapiers). The reason is that any bronze blade longer than 30 cm or so will snap the first time it hits *anything*.

Remember that there were in fact bronze swords that did have long narrow blades designed as stabbing weapons. In fact they are commonly referred to as "rapiers" due to a superficial similarity in blade geometry to that of the much later weapon.

 

[JamesDJarvis]

Bronze is all over the board in its properties. The rulebook ruling are bornze are adequate in pointign out differences between bronze and steel weapons. Historically bronze really lost out to Iron and Steel because it was more expensive then Iron based goods, some of the metals included in the mix to make bronze are much more difficult to find then iron.

I know a fellow who makes bronze alloys for fun (go figure) and it makes nice light weight knives and spear heads. But he cheats and uses alloys that were not common in olden times.