Level Up (A5E) Limited Range Maneuvers

Whaleman

Villager
I have been going through the Combat Maneuvers and beyond Biting Zephyr it seems very limited for combat maneuvers that help with ranged weapons. Would it break anything to open this up more by letting some of the maneuvers work with ranged weapons? I can't but wonder if the limit to mostly Biting Zephyr was a balance choice due to the inherent safety of ranged fighting. One that I think would be cool are Unending Wheel with Dangerous Signature. You fire an arrow with your signature pinning it to them.
 

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VanguardHero

Adventurer
Ranged Martials needed far less than Melee. Ranged attacks getting full damage to attacks means there is no tradeoff to the safety of Range, combined with being Dex based meaning also a solid AC. In o5e there is no reason to play a Melee Martial, it is strictly an inferior choice, so it is the role that Level Up needed to improve the most. Zephyr has some cool stuff, and there are non-attack Maneuvers in other Disciplines to round it out, but it was a very good move limiting the options of Range right off the bat.
 

Selganor

Explorer
As for specifically combining Dangerous Signature with a ranged attack...

Couldn't that be done with The Throwing Stance (also Unending Wheel)? Granted... a normally Melee only weapon would probably still be counted as a Ranged Weapon Attack but if it was only used to leave a mark (at short range only since you need Advantage which would be cancelled at long range by the Disadvantage) I'd probably allow it.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I wouldn't say ranged combatants have limited options -- they have about 13 more maneuvers than in O5E! But melee combatants, typically the least mobile and interesting, have a lot of extra support in A5E to make them more dynamic and mobile, because they really benefit from it.
 

Stalker0

Legend
The biggest thing I have found watching my player's archer ranger, is that between the limited option for ranged maneuvers AND the limited schools you can have, it is actually quite difficult to find maneuvers after a few levels. In his last level up he was really scrapping the bucket for options, and though I tried to help him out I felt the same frustration.
 

Whaleman

Villager
I wouldn't say ranged combatants have limited options -- they have about 13 more maneuvers than in O5E! But melee combatants, typically the least mobile and interesting, have a lot of extra support in A5E to make them more dynamic and mobile, because they really benefit from it.
They absolutely have more options than O5E. I agree that melee feels much better with the maneuvers. I had two players making characters and they were struggling to pick their second school after taking Biting Zephyr. None of the other schools gave them options they felt interested in. Additionally as mentioned by Stalker0 it seems that as you level you may struggle find any appealing maneuvers as you are so focused on a single school.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
The biggest thing I have found watching my player's archer ranger, is that between the limited option for ranged maneuvers AND the limited schools you can have, it is actually quite difficult to find maneuvers after a few levels. In his last level up he was really scrapping the bucket for options, and though I tried to help him out I felt the same frustration.
Well, that's when the ranger needs to think about back-up weapons. Even if he never plans on using that blade by his side, it'd still be handy to give it some abilities.

Although, as a completely untested house rule: Maneuver specialization. Spend a maneuver slot to specialize in an already-known maneuver. The save DC increases by 1 and/or the damage output increases by, like, half your PB.
 

WarDriveWorley

Adventurer
The ranger in my group has taken to splitting his maneuvers between Biting Zephyr and Razor's Edge. While RE has some melee specific options there are some that can be used for any weapon and fit well on a ranged attacker (Dangerous Strike and Perfect Edge Stance are two that come to mind) and some of them are also good for a ranged attacker that suddenly finds themselves in melee (Practiced Roll, Exploit Footing, and Sharpened Awareness specifically). That said another tradition with some ranged options would be a welcome addition.
 

lichmaster

Adventurer
Although, as a completely untested house rule: Maneuver specialization. Spend a maneuver slot to specialize in an already-known maneuver. The save DC increases by 1 and/or the damage output increases by, like, half your PB.
That may be a solution at the table, but would chip away some of the uniqueness of the fighter.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Although, as a completely untested house rule: Maneuver specialization. Spend a maneuver slot to specialize in an already-known maneuver. The save DC increases by 1 and/or the damage output increases by, like, half your PB.
A nice idea, both to combat this issue but also for people that want a little of LU's complexity, but don't want to go all the way. Some people just like having their one thing that they are really good at, and this would allow you to bring back some simplicity.

That said, you might consider restricting it to the level ranges the fighter allows it, else it might open the door on some combos that aren't possible now, but suddenly with specialization might be OP.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
A nice idea, both to combat this issue but also for people that want a little of LU's complexity, but don't want to go all the way. Some people just like having their one thing that they are really good at, and this would allow you to bring back some simplicity.

That said, you might consider restricting it to the level ranges the fighter allows it, else it might open the door on some combos that aren't possible now, but suddenly with specialization might be OP.
That sounds good to me. Fighters get specialization at 3rd, 7th, 11th, and 15th level for free. As it turns out, all the martial classes gain new maneuvers at those levels, which makes it a good time to choose whether they want to learn a new maneuver or beef up an existing one. The ability could simply copy fighter specialization (-1 to cost, +1 to DC) instead of doing anything about damage like I had initially said. Or perhaps anyone, including fighters, could also spend a maneuver slot on a previously specialized maneuver to also increase the damage by 1/2 PB (or whatever).

This would mean that a fighter could give up one maneuver slot, and everyone else could give up two maneuver slots, to really specialize (need a better name) in a single maneuver. I don't think that many people will use this ability except for those who really want to be good with one particular style--like ranged fighters. This might make ranged combatants pretty strong, but would also make them weaker in melee combat.
 

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