Limiting magic item creation without XP.

[RangerWickett]

I don't like the fact that XP is an expendable resource. I understand the balance involved in paying XP to get a magic item, but I much preferred the 2nd edition concept that making magic items was difficult, but it earned you XP. So do people have any suggestions for balancing magic item creation without requiring an XP cost?

 

[Crothian]

Artificers Handbook

 

[Psion]

Artificers Handbook

Took the post right off of my fingertips!

Not that I do have a problem with expending XP, but die... er, der Kluge has some ideas for limiting. It's actually sort of cool, really. You can, for example, stop in the middle of item creation to do something else... but you will be lacking spell slots until you do.

A simpler variant you might try is to exclusively use the power component rules in DMG. (Green Ronin's Advanced GM's Guide presents a more detailed version of this.)

I wish that RoninArts would put out Artificer's Handbook in PDF like the other MEG books.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

On the other hand, you look at the fiction out there and you see that (in some) creating a magic item was difficult to the point of threatening life...as were some spells.

Tom Baker as the evil sorcerer in one of the Sinbad movies aged every time he tried something difficult...Odin sacrificed an eye for a share of ultimate wisdom...

Creating magic items should NOT be easy. You don't want your campaign flooded with custom magic.

Perhaps the rule should just be this: Each magic item has material components that must be supplied/obtained by either the artificer or his client- personally- and STICK to it. If something requires "the sound of falling snow" then can't be made until winter, or must be made in the mountains, or within the Arctic/Antarctic circle... And if it takes 180 days to make, then it takes 180 days to make. If the artificer is an NPC, make the players wait. If its a PC, that character can't go anywhere "fun" for a while- and his player may need to play a different PC for a while.

In other words- it should require a quest- however minor.

 

[Treebore]

On the other hand, you look at the fiction out there and you see that (in some) creating a magic item was difficult to the point of threatening life...as were some spells.

Tom Baker as the evil sorcerer in one of the Sinbad movies aged every time he tried something difficult...Odin sacrificed an eye for a share of ultimate wisdom...

Creating magic items should NOT be easy. You don't want your campaign flooded with custom magic.

Perhaps the rule should just be this: Each magic item has material components that must be supplied/obtained by either the artificer or his client- personally- and STICK to it. If something requires "the sound of falling snow" then can't be made until winter, or must be made in the mountains, or within the Arctic/Antarctic circle... And if it takes 180 days to make, then it takes 180 days to make. If the artificer is an NPC, make the players wait. If its a PC, that character can't go anywhere "fun" for a while- and his player may need to play a different PC for a while.

In other words- it should require a quest- however minor.

So what it really boils down to is the style/flavor of the game the DM is running and how they want it to go. Not everyone DM's games the same way as Dannyalcatraz, or the way I do.

As for how I do this, I just don't have items cost xp's to make until they go over 15,000 GP in value (meaning full book price). Then the PC surpasses the plateau where their body can "heal" the loss, and need to adventure to get their "strength" back, and to become even stronger/more powerful.

So yes, there is the potential for having a lot of low powered items around. However, my experience has been that most players don't like having their characters spend many days making items, let alone taking the necessary feats over other feats. So I haven't had this become a problem for my style of DMing. But I definitely see the potential for it to happen.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Its an inch vs mile thing in evey campaign I've run recently.

Once the party's mage becomes powerful enough to create stuff, he become's the party's armorer.

Because of this, I have had to be tough about the whole making items rule, at least in terms of HOW difficult it is. I still let them make whatever they want, assuming they're willing to pay the price...but that price may be HIGH indeed.

 

[der_kluge]

Artificers Handbook

Whew! I'm glad I didn't have to say it. I feel like I'm a broken record sometimes. Thanks, guys.

 

[arscott]

Something I've come up with for d20 Modern one-shots where XP cost isn't practical:

Use action points. Unearthed Arcana says that Action points are worth 100 gp/level, and the 5 gp/xp is the standard used when hiring someone to cast spells with an xp cost. So it's pretty reasonable to allow spells to be cast and items crafted at a cost of 1 AP = 20 xp/character level.

Of course, this is only a reasonable solution if you use Action points (and more specifically, action points akin to those in d20 Modern or Unearthed Arcana. I'm not sure how the Eberron or Star Wars ones measure up, let alone 3rd party versions.)

 

[adwyn]

IMC I threw out xp expenditures and required the crafter to invest 1 (or rarely more) physical attribute points in each item, other than scrolls or potions. The point is regained if the item is destroyed.

This has worked to keep proliferation from getting out of control without the PC crafters completely dissappearing.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well, let me give you a sense of the setting. It's a modern world, and because it's modern, people are going to try to mass produce magic. Some things are little more than highly-advanced alchemy -- potions and other various one-use items with low-level spells are okay. The occasional magic bullet that grants a +1 bonus to attacks or that delivers a low-level spell is fine. But anything impressive, I want to be rare.

Action points could work, but there's the problem of 'how do NPCs make magic items?'

What resources do we have to work with, and why would it be good or bad to require them?

1. Time. Force characters to spend time. This takes them out of the game, which is bad for gameplay. But having people make magic items on the spot is bad for narrative purposes. Of course you could use the Unearthed Arcana 'craft points' idea and just handwave that the character had been working on the item for a while.

2. XP. Sort of fits the feel of how magic works, but some games don't really track XP closely.

3. HP. If mages had to sacrifice some HP permanently, that would be a nice balance. But what about rules for other people donating HP? Would the fighter give up some HP so the wizard could make him magic armor?

4. Ability scores. Not quite as good, because 1 point in any ability is very serious. And actually it should be at least 2 points per item, or else it might not be a penalty at all.

5. Spell slots. This is an interesting idea. To create a permanent item you have to give up a spell slot of an appropriate level.

6. Skill points. Maybe you have to give up some of your knowledge? No, this is a worse idea than XP.

7. Money. This feels too cheap, and makes magic less magical. Money can easily be a component in the cost, though, representing some sort of sacrifice.


Right now I'm leaning toward either HP or spell slots. What do you think?