Limits of Miracle spell to turn tide of battle

[moritheil]

I'm also casting my vote for a psuedo-revenance. Make them sweat, but don't make it ridiculous. The cleric could have cast gate instead, so as long as the result isn't too much worse than a gate, I don't see how the players have grounds to object.

 

[evilbob]

I think the way this spell was written, along with the power level of the spell and the 5000XP cost leads to the following interpretation:
- Vampires who are in gaseous form are not dead/destroyed, and therefore are probably unaffected. A very open interpretation would suggest they are also returned to full HP, albeit already be halfway back to their coffins at that point.
- All other dead/destroyed creatures from this battle are returned to life/unlife with full HP, no level loss, without regaining/recharging spells or other abilities that are limited use, but not losing any prepared spells or abilities, either. (This includes disrupted creatures, as disrupting an undead vampire is the same as destroying it with sunlight or disintegrate or anything else like that.) They are prone and not carrying anything in their hands (in fact, someone could have picked up their stuff), but they are alive/undead. I'd also rule them flat-footed and reset their initiative to the end of the battle round.

That said, I would probably change this slightly, based on two factors: 1) the flavor of the death cleric's god, and more importantly, 2) how likely your PCs are to survive.

If your PCs are likely to survive the above, then I'd say run with it. The disrupting weapon(s) functions every time it hits, so they've always got a chance of destroying those vampires again. You just need to measure, very carefully, how much of a chance the PCs have to make it. If it's an ok chance or even a slightly worse than average, I'd say stick to it. Those epic spellcasters are epic for a reason.

If they don't have a very good chance at all, I'd change the ruling slightly based on the god. If the god is evil, but not necessarily necromantic, I'd rule this way:
- Vampires who are in gaseous form are not dead/destroyed, and therefore are unaffected.
- All other dead/destroyed creatures (including disrupted ones) from this battle are returned to life. This means they are returned to actual life, and lose the vampire template. (They retain their CE alignment and loyalties, and are only as old as they were when they gained the template.) They return with full HP, no level loss, without regaining/recharging spells or other abilities that are limited use, but not losing any prepared spells or abilities, either. They are prone, flat-footed, and not carrying anything in their hands, and their initiative shifts to the end of the round.

This reduces the challenge rating of these baddies and thus the encounter overall - potentially helping the players (unless literally everything they have is anti-undead, in which case it might hurt more than it helped). Plus, it's ironicly funny, and the sort of mean-spirited thing an evil god might do.

If your players STILL don't have a snowball's chance of surviving, and/or the evil god is somewhat necromantic or particularly CE, then I'd tip the scales one further:
- Vampires who are in gaseous form are not dead/destroyed, and therefore are unaffected.
- All other dead/destroyed creatures (including disrupted ones) from this battle are returned to undeath. This means they are returned as zombies, gaining the zombie template and losing any other template. They return with full HP (for zombies), no level loss, without regaining/recharging spells or other abilities that are limited use, but at the same time they'll lose all spell usage because of the zombie template. They are prone, flat-footed, and not carrying anything in their hands, and their initiative shifts to the end of the round.

This is particularly helpful because the zombies won't pose nearly as much of a threat as the vampires, the party's anti-undead equipment will still work, and the main threat - the epic spellcaster - is still effectively out of the battle. It's also something a particularly CE god might do to someone who bothered to ask him to help win a battle for them.

These are just three options - there are always more. However, I believe the main points of your original interpretation of the spell are correct: all the "fallen allies" are revived, and they receive full HP and no level loss or prepared spell loss. Destroyed undead (even disrupted ones) are raised (look at the description of the resurection spell - it includes exactly this type of situation). Line of effect is irrelavent. This is how I'd rule it for an 18th level cleric burning 5000 XP, and this is how the archvillian should get it, too.

 

[frankthedm]

I always assumed "Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting" meant that for this one battle, fallen allies are restored back to full hp to fight, but afterward, they fall dead again. It doesn't say "Bring allies back to life," it specifically works to swing the tide of a single battle. Bringing everyone back at 1 hp wouldn't really swing anything. And, bringing them back for longer than the encounter constitutes more than "swinging the tide of battle."

That's how I see it at least.

Yep. My thoughts exactly. Miracle swings the tide of battle and that is just what this would do. Players should teleport away or have their own cleric can cast a Miracle or have the wizard cast Wish to try to undo the evil Clerics miracle.

 

[Joshua Randall]

There's a spell in (I think) Book of Exalted Deeds that works something like this -- you summon a crapload of powerful, good outsiders (planetars and such). Then you die.

So if that spell can exist, then it seems that using a miracle to restore all your dead/destroyed buddies to (un)life with no drawback* might be too powerful.

* No drawback other than 5000 XP, which is of course irrelevant to an NPC.

Maybe it would be even more dramatic if the evil, epic theurge sacrifices her own life (as part of the miracle) to restore all her allies to (un)life. She'd be hoping that her allies will win, and later bring her back. But at least for this fight, she's gone.

Miracle and wish really stretch the limits of what's by the rules vs. not by the rules. I don't think there are any definitive answers for either spell.

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

I agree with several posters here. The Miracle would raise all of the BBEG's pals (up to a reasonable number - say 1/2 levels) for the duration of the fight, undead or not. Affected creatures would be at full (un)health but would be down whatever spells, rages, stunning, smites, etc as they were at the moment of their destruction.

If you wanted to be really generous, you could give them the net effect of one negative level (-1 on almost everything, maybe some spell limitations as per negative levels). The real question is whether or not the PCs have shot their wad and cannot handle the encounter a second time.

 

[evilbob]

I'd also like to say that while I understand how the interpretation could come about, I strongly disagree with those who would limit the power of the spell to "the duration of the battle" only. In other words, I do not believe this spell would only raise the dead just to finish one battle; I have never read the spell's description to mean that, I don't think that makes much sense in the scheme of resurrection spells, and I honestly don't think it's fair. 5000 XP is a HUGE cost. It may not "mean much to an NPC" from a PC's perspective, but it is still extremely exorbitant. Isn't the formula for spending XP instead of gold 1 XP per 25 GP? That would mean that the cost of this spell is in line with casting 5 x true resurrections (normally 25k each). That certainly seems within the realm of reason for raising your allies to fight again, and nothing really implies to me that they should die again after the spell is over.

 

[Mort]

I'd also like to say that while I understand how the interpretation could come about, I strongly disagree with those who would limit the power of the spell to "the duration of the battle" only. In other words, I do not believe this spell would only raise the dead just to finish one battle; I have never read the spell's description to mean that, I don't think that makes much sense in the scheme of resurrection spells, and I honestly don't think it's fair. 5000 XP is a HUGE cost. It may not "mean much to an NPC" from a PC's perspective, but it is still extremely exorbitant. Isn't the formula for spending XP instead of gold 1 XP per 25 GP? That would mean that the cost of this spell is in line with casting 5 x true resurrections (normally 25k each). That certainly seems within the realm of reason for raising your allies to fight again, and nothing really implies to me that they should die again after the spell is over.

True resurrection takes 10 minutes to cast on one target, this spell allows you to bring back your allies at full (or 1/2 or whatever the DM decides for the story) as a standard action - that's a big deal and well worth 5k x.p. Keep in mind if the cleric wins the battle, or causes the party to flee he can use more permanent raises later.

So my vote would also be for a revenance like effect - something like brings back at full HP (but spell slots expended) for 1 min level. (enough to "turn the tide of battle" not bring an army back to life with one spell)

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

5000 XP is a huge cost but well worth the expense in this case.

 

[DreadArchon]

I think that the effect should be based almost entirely on the deity being called here. For example, if the BBEG was calling for a battle-swinging Miracle from Farlangh, I'd make it teleport the whole battle to somewhere beneficial to the BBEG; if it was Orcus, they'd be raised as Undead; etc.

 

[moritheil]

There's a spell in (I think) Book of Exalted Deeds that works something like this -- you summon a crapload of powerful, good outsiders (planetars and such). Then you die.

So if that spell can exist, then it seems that using a miracle to restore all your dead/destroyed buddies to (un)life with no drawback* might be too powerful.

I believe you're talking about Armageddon, which requires you to sacrifice 1 character level. You don't die, though. And for the most part all you get are eladrins.

Also, this argument strikes me as totally metagame and not really how I would personally balance a campaign:

* No drawback other than 5000 XP, which is of course irrelevant to an NPC.