Linking CHA and Beauty

[Hypersmurf]

Well, the problem I have is that DEX determines gracefulness (to a lesser extent than skills, but still) whereas I don't think any link exists between a character's appearance and his CHA.

Apart from the link where it says "A character's Charisma determines... physical appearance"?

Motor skills and balance may not be related, but they do relate to DEX as it is written in the game.

And physical appearance relates to Cha as it is written in the game. The description of Cha says so.

-Hyp.

 

[phindar]

Yeah, I think that's poorly thought out, and I think that over the course of the topic I've provided many compelling reasons why its poorly thought out. If you have a reason you think appearance should relate to CHA, I'd love to discuss it with you.

But if post #1 starts out with, "It says in the book CHA relates to physical attractiveness, and here's why I think that's a bad idea," why show up on post #100 and say "But it says it in the book." I mean, we know what it says in the book. Its what we've been talking about for these 100 posts.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But if post #1 starts out with, "It says in the book CHA relates to physical attractiveness, and here's why I think that's a bad idea," why show up on post #100 and say "But it says it in the book." I mean, we know what it says in the book. Its what we've been talking about for these 100 posts.

Dex measures hand-eye coordination - how do we know? It says so in the book.
Wisdom describes intuition - how do we know? It says so in the book.
Charisma measures physical attractiveness - how do we know? It says so in the book.

Can't any argument against one of those things be applied against the others as well? Why should someone who is strong-willed also be perceptive or intuitive?

You said:

Its been asked why I object to CHA defining two unrelated things (personality and appearance) but not to DEX covering motor skills and balance. Motor skills and balance may not be related, but they do relate to DEX as it is written in the game.

If "they relate to Dex as it is written in the game" is a good enough reason for one ability to cover two unrelated things, why is "they relate to Cha as it is written in the game" not a good enough reason for one ability to cover two unrelated things?

-Hyp.

 

[phindar]

Q: The book says CHA links to attractiveness. Is this a good idea?

A: Yes, because it says so in the book.

Do you see the circular nature of that argument?

Now, throughout this topic I and others have made the case of why CHA should be separate, and other posters (like Felix and Aaron L) has said why they think they should be linked. We're discussing why we think the text is justified or not justified in linking beauty to CHA.

If "they relate to Dex as it is written in the game" is a good enough reason for one ability to cover two unrelated things, why is "they relate to Cha as it is written in the game" not a good enough reason for one ability to cover two unrelated things?

Appearance, on the other hand, I see as Fluff and not only separate from personality, but separate from CHA as a game concept. I don't think your casting stat or your Turn Attempts per day should be related to how you look. And there seems to be no shortage of high CHA people in the real world who are dogs, or low CHA people who are models. (A supermodel who is not a talented platoon commander doesn't seem to be that far outside the norm, for example.) So its pretty easy for me to buy the idea that CHA is not dependent on beauty, nor is beauty dependent on CHA. To me, that's the same as saying they aren't linked.

One of the things we've been trying to get to is if the book links physical attractiveness, how are they linked? I mean, what does the link actually do? That actually seems pretty nebulous, because the general consensus seems to be:

1) High CHA can be physically unattractive.

2) Low CHA characters can be good-looking.

If CHA can make a character beautiful, but so can any nebulous factor we choose, if the player can simply say, "My character is good-looking" without any qualifier at all, in what way does being good-looking rely on CHA??

 

[Felix]

Phindar,

If you've already decided what you are going to think, then there is no discussion: it's a series of monologues.

If you ask, "How are they connected" and are provided explanations that are based upon what's written in the book, and you reply with "I don't agree with the book", then we have misunderstood your aim in trying to understand why the book was written in the way it was.

Hyp's argument asks you, "If you agree with one stat controlling two seperate elements of a person, then why would you take issue with a different stat doing the same thing?" Namely, how can you argue against CHA dealing with physical attractiveness simply because it is unrelated to the other elements of CHA?

As good a line of questioning as that is, and I think you did at one point slip into that argument, I believe your problem with Charisma dealing with physical appearance is that you believe Charisma to be a wholly personality, non-corporeal measurement. It reflects how people act towards and are reacted to by others, and that the physical reality of their bodies has nothing to do with this.

Well, as you like.

But:

As a member of the fashion industry, I can tell you that attitude and carriage mean more to the physical attractiveness of a person than what they wear or what their bodies look like. A high charisma can turn an eyepatch and a facial scar from unsightly into dashing. A high charisma can turn a rotund fat man from a loner Comic Book Guy into a life-of-the-party Chris Farley. A low charisma can turn a specimen of physical perfection into a wilting wallflower. A low charisma can turn a gorgeous brunette into an unapproached spinster.

The physical material of these people have not changed, but they way they interact with others changes drastically. If Dr. McDreamy acted like Rain Man, he would not be as physically attractive to the women who now swoon over him. Charisma "sells" yourself: you may have everything to work with (a Kathy Ireland look-alike) but be unable to capitalize because you're too timid; you may have less to work with (a Steve Buscemi clone) but be a ladies' man. Your physical attractiveness is wholly and inextricably tied to your Charisma, despite (or in support of) what you may physically look like.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The physical material of these people have not changed, but they way they interact with others changes drastically. If Dr. McDreamy acted like Rain Man, he would not be as physically attractive to the women who now swoon over him. Charisma "sells" yourself: you may have everything to work with (a Kathy Ireland look-alike) but be unable to capitalize because you're too timid; you may have less to work with (a Steve Buscemi clone) but be a ladies' man. Your physical attractiveness is wholly and inextricably tied to your Charisma, despite (or in support of) what you may physically look like.

Yeah, I think people are kind of getting at that with the whole "physical attractiveness is different from beauty" angle. Where you may be an obese pimply greasy pale mess of a human being, but for some reason, you make it look *good,* so people become physically attracted to you.

Like you said, being physically attracted to someone's body has a lot to do with how that body is presented, and that presentation is Charisma.

I also really like Aaron L's interpretation of Charisma as "divine grace" of a sorts, a kind of magical inspiration-energy and the favor of the gods.

 

[GreatLemur]

The physical material of these people have not changed, but they way they interact with others changes drastically. If Dr. McDreamy acted like Rain Man, he would not be as physically attractive to the women who now swoon over him. Charisma "sells" yourself: you may have everything to work with (a Kathy Ireland look-alike) but be unable to capitalize because you're too timid; you may have less to work with (a Steve Buscemi clone) but be a ladies' man. Your physical attractiveness is wholly and inextricably tied to your Charisma, despite (or in support of) what you may physically look like.

I think we may be using different definitions of the phrase "physically attractive", here. I think the rest of us are speaking of the literal, material construction of a person's face and body. You (and Kamikaze Midget) seem to be referring to overall attractiveness, or people's perceptions of a person's looks while interacting with them. I don't think there's anyone who would disagree that Charisma is extremely relevant in the latter case.

More simply, some of us mean "physical" as in "material", and others mean "physical" as in "sexual", and this has clearly lead to misunderstanding.'

For the record, though, Charisma as "divine favor" still sounds really silly to me.

 

[phindar]

A high charisma can turn a rotund fat man from a loner Comic Book Guy into a life-of-the-party Chris Farley.

I agree wholeheartedly. This is 95% of my argument as to why physical attractiveness shouldn't link to CHA. Because-- animation aside-- Comic Book Guy and Chris Farley are roughly the same level of physical attractiveness. And yet one of them was a very talented comedian and movie star, and the other is stalking Linda Carter.

If CHA is the sole determining factor of physical attractiveness in the system (as no other stat mentions it, and it is not mentioned anywhere else), then the logical assumption is High CHA characters are beautiful, and Low CHA characters are ugly. While that's what the rules imply, after 100+ posts, no one seems to think that makes any sense. The general consensus is that High CHA characters can be funny-looking (Steve Buschemi) and Low CHA characters can be pretty (Paris Hilton). So the one thing I can draw from that is no one thinks CHA is the sole determing factor of physical attractiveness.

Namely, how can you argue against CHA dealing with physical attractiveness simply because it is unrelated to the other elements of CHA?

I answered this question twice, but hey, maybe the third time is the charm. My objection is not that physical attractiveness is unrelated to other elements of CHA, but that physical attractiveness is unrelated to CHA itself. CHA is a casting stat, it determines your Turn Attempts per day. I don't think a person's relative hotness has any effect on their ability to Turn Undead.

My questions to you Felix are these:

1) Does a character with a High CHA have to be attractive.

2) Does a character with a Low CHA have to be ugly.

If the answer is no, if the player can simply say, "My character is good-looking" without any qualifier at all, in what way does being good-looking rely on CHA?

 

[robberbaron]

Back in AD&D days (we don't place too much importance on Appearance in 3.5, possibly because we are in our forties) we used APP = CHA+1d6-1d6.

 

[Felix]

I agree wholeheartedly. This is 95% of my argument as to why physical attractiveness shouldn't link to CHA. Because-- animation aside-- Comic Book Guy and Chris Farley are roughly the same level of physical attractiveness. And yet one of them was a very talented comedian and movie star, and the other is stalking Linda Carter.

You deny that Chris Farley's charisma and energy made him more physically attractive than Comic Book Guy?

If CHA is the sole determining factor of physical attractiveness in the system (as no other stat mentions it, and it is not mentioned anywhere else), then the logical assumption is High CHA characters are beautiful, and Low CHA characters are ugly.

High CHA characters are physically attractive.
Low CHA characters are physically unattractive.

This is true.

Divorce this from mere body matter in your mind, and allow Charisma to be the mental stat that it is; it's not with STR, DEX, and CON for a reason: it's a mental stat. Allow Charisma to be the personality that makes the physical body attractive or unappealing.

Or do you think personality counts for absolutely nothing when determining attractiveness?

While that's what the rules imply, after 100+ posts, no one I, phindar, don't seem to think that makes any sense.

I think you speak for less than everyone on this thread.

My objection is not that physical attractiveness is unrelated to other elements of CHA, but that physical attractiveness is unrelated to CHA itself.

So between two women you know who are equally physically beautiful, the one who has a permanent sucking-on-a-lemon look on her face is as attractive as the one who smiles? The one who does nothing but complain about everything wrong with you is as physically attractive to you as the one who compliments you? The woman who is constantly miserable is as attractive as the one who is happy?

Balderdash.

CHA is a casting stat, it determines your Turn Attempts per day. I don't think a person's relative hotness has any effect on their ability to Turn Undead.

Mental stat. How you act and present yourself is affected by charisma, and that makes you more or less attractive.

My questions to you Felix are these:

1) Does a character with a High CHA have to be attractive.

2) Does a character with a Low CHA have to be ugly.

1. A character with a High CHA will be attractive, regardless of what they look like.

2. A character with a Low CHA will be unattractive, regardless of what they look like.

If the answer is no, if the player can simply say, "My character is good-looking" without any qualifier at all, in what way does being good-looking rely on CHA?

They can be "good-looking" all day long, but if their CHA is poor, they'll be unattractive, unattended, unpaid-attention to, and used.

Charisma is a mental stat.