Linking CHA and Beauty

[orsal]

CHA is a casting stat, it determines your Turn Attempts per day. I don't think a person's relative hotness has any effect on their ability to Turn Undead.

I hate to find myself defending the link between charisma and sex appeal, because it's always disturbed me, but you've got yet another nonsequitur. What you have said is analogous to "DEX is a measure of reflexes, it determines your initiative. I don't think a person's marksmanship has any effect on their initiative." The fact is that DEX, like CHA, is a combination of many things, which include agility, reflexes, and good aim. CHA affects a sorceror's spellcasting; it also affects Diplomacy checks and Leadership scores, which even I have to admit can be affected by sex appeal. (BTW, I have a problem with sorceror spellcasting being CHA-based, but that's another issue.)

 

[Aaron L]

Charisma is a mental stat.

So is Dexterity.

For the record, though, Charisma as "divine favor" still sounds really silly to me.

Then argue with history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charisma

 

[Felix]

So is Dexterity.

In the same way that Strength is: without a mind to direct the body, a weightlifter couldn't lift 5lbs. Strength measures what the physical body is capable of concerning lifting, swinging, Climb, Jump, etc. Dexterity measures what the physical body is capable of concerning reflexes, reaction time, Opening Locks, Riding, Using Rope, etc. Constitution measures what a physical body is capable of concerning health, robustness, breath-holding, endurance, fatigue, etc.

Meanwhile Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma measure what the mind is capable of. While Charisma does not determine how many facial blemishes or missing teeth a character has, it does determine how attractive they are.

Do you suggest there is no meaningful distinction along these lines?

 

[Aaron L]

In the same way that Strength is: without a mind to direct the body, a weightlifter couldn't lift 5lbs. Strength measures what the physical body is capable of concerning lifting, swinging, Climb, Jump, etc. Dexterity measures what the physical body is capable of concerning reflexes, reaction time, Opening Locks, Riding, Using Rope, etc. Constitution measures what a physical body is capable of concerning health, robustness, breath-holding, endurance, fatigue, etc.

Meanwhile Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma measure what the mind is capable of. While Charisma does not determine how many facial blemishes or missing teeth a character has, it does determine how attractive they are.

Do you suggest there is no meaningful distinction along these lines?

No, I was taking a stat's entire list of components and reducing it down to just one of them, selected at random, and then saying "it represents this, therefore it's entiremely this way."


All of the stats have both mental and physical characteristics, some more than others. Charisma has elements of physical attractiveness (a physical characteristic), just as Dexterity has elements of balance and reaction speed (mental characteristics.)



Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. I've been slamming my head against a wall for the past 2 pages. Besides, ENWorld has gotten far too snide, abusive, and overtly insulting over the past few weeks and I need to take a break. I've been pretty much shocked and ashamed at some of the things I've been reading here, a place I've always thought of as a comforting place to visit.

One more thing in my life gone to hell.

 

[phindar]

Meanwhile Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma measure what the mind is capable of. While Charisma does not determine how many facial blemishes or missing teeth a character has, it does determine how attractive they are.

Again, I agree with you, but that's my argument for CHA not relating to beauty. I think that in practice we end up pretty close on this issue, but we follow a different line of reasoning to get there. Obviously, we're never going to agree 100% because in this instance we're like the Odd Couple, where I am Oscar and you are whoever Jack Lemmon's character was.

To me, your above example is of a physically unattractive person who uses their personal magnetism to attract people. It doesn't make them pretty, but it does let them overcome their physical repulsiveness.

This topic spun off from a discussion about a illustration of a hot chick with an 8 CHA, which some posters objected to, and some defended. It seems like the above example would be a picture of a acne-scarred, snaggletoothed swamp thing, but who if you met them would be able to charm you farily quickly.

High CHA characters are physically attractive.
Low CHA characters are physically unattractive.

And,

You may have a high CHA and be physically unattractive, but because you are so charismatic, people will look beyond that. Jimmy Durante is a nice example of this.

How is this not contradictory? Are you saying that physically unattractive people with high CHAs can attract people physically? (Are characters simultaneously attractive and unattractive, or am I thinking of a certain cat?)

Because it seems to me you are saying that Jimmy Durante's high CHA allows him to attract people despite the fact he looks like a subspecies of the common potato. CHA doesn't make him beautiful, it makes people be able to see past appearance. This to me is a much better reading of CHA than "CHA determines physical attractiveness", it gets right to the heart of the matter of CHA as a mental stat completely separate from one's superficial appearance. Beauty is only skin deep.

Who is more physically attractive, Jimmy Durante or Paris Hilton?

Who has a higher CHA?

 

[GreatLemur]

Then argue with history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charisma

Regardless of the word's etymology, that still sounds silly in light of its modern definition. I realize that the word has theological associations in certain contexts, but I've always taken its meaning in D&D be strictly related to charm and personality. After all, the game has quite a lot of more explicit ways to express "divine favor" in a character. It seems illogical to stuff the gods into one of the six basic stats, as well.

 

[orsal]

Regardless of the word's etymology, that still sounds silly in light of its modern definition. I realize that the word has theological associations in certain contexts, but I've always taken its meaning in D&D be strictly related to charm and personality. After all, the game has quite a lot of more explicit ways to express "divine favor" in a character. It seems illogical to stuff the gods into one of the six basic stats, as well.

Especially since an interpretation of Charisma as divine favour would support it being the spellcasting stat for clerics. Which it isn't.

I think you have to interpret the stats as D&D jargon, with terms drawn from common usage to closely approximate their D&D meaning. In other words, the use of the word Charisma doesn't *decree* that a D&D character's Charisma should match what in the real world is called charisma; it merely indicates that that feature referred to in the D&D context as Charisma is closely enough related to charisma to make the word a convenient borrowing. To illustrate the point more clearly, think about how much Wisdom deviates from what we understand as wisdom. If I were to explain (say, to a non-native English speaker) the distinction between intelligence and wisdom, I'd say that intelligence is innate aptitude, while wisdom is the product of life experience. An intelligent but unwise person could be a kid, naive but a good learner, who might later be described as wise once she has learned more. The distinction between Intelligence and Wisdom (the D&D stats), however, is totally different -- they're too different kinds of intelligence, since the six attributes are forms of aptitude (with experience represented through skill ranks and the like).

 

[phindar]

In other words, the use of the word Charisma doesn't *decree* that a D&D character's Charisma should match what in the real world is called charisma; it merely indicates that that feature referred to in the D&D context as Charisma is closely enough related to charisma to make the word a convenient borrowing.

I agree. In normal conversation, "charisma" is often used to mean likability. In game terms:

A high charisma person will be more likeable when he wants to be more likeable, more intimidating when he wants to be intimidating, more offensive when he wants to be offensive. A low charisma person will generally be more annoying when he wants to be likeable, more humorous when he wants to be intimidating, and generally more unnoticeable when he wants to be offensive.

It seems to me that some of us are using "physically attractive" to mean "people want to sleep with you," and others to mean "hotness".

To clarify my position, if your character was in magical stasis, you wouldn't be able to discern his CHA score, any more than you could his INT or WIS. You could tell if the character was physically attractive, because you can see him. You could say, "That is a very handsome man," or, "He is very plain."

When the character becomes unfrozen, his personal magnetism (or lack thereof) may draw you in (or repulse you), but this is independent of his appearance. (People still want to have sex with Low CHA people. Witness Paris Hilton.) That's my justification for saying CHA doesn't determine appearance.

My point is that if a player wants to make a pretty character, there shouldn't be a CHA requirement for it. They can make Adriana Lima with a 8 CHA; she is one of the most beautiful women in the world, but that doesn't mean that the character has to be good at the things in the game CHA makes you good at.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Dex measures hand-eye coordination - how do we know? It says so in the book.
Wisdom describes intuition - how do we know? It says so in the book.
Charisma measures physical attractiveness - how do we know? It says so in the book.

-Hyp.

It's worth noting that according to the PHB, Charisma measures more than physical attractiveness. Physical attractiveness is one of many components of charisma.

It's also worth noting, as has been stated before, that beauty is but one component of physical attractiveness. Confidence, poise, fashion, attitude, wit & charm, etc. all contribute to attractiveness.

Beauty is: proportional facial features, clear skin, straight teeth, high cheekbones, etc*. These are all features selectable by the player, just like hair color, skin color, etc.

Bottom line is that your character can appear however you want. A perfect adonis or a disfigured wretch; totally up to you. How other creatures *react* to that appearance is determined by Cha.

-z

* generic caveat about cultural differences for beauty, not everyone considers beautiful people to be beautiful, blah blah blah.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I agree that Charisma has nothing whatsoever to do with appearance. One way to represent appearance is through feats and flaws.

Attractive
Benefit: You are particularly good looking, giving you a +2 appearance bonus to all charisma-based skill checks, except for intimidate checks. NPC's whose initial attitude toward you would be unfriendly or better may have their attitude toward you improved by one category, at the DM's discretion.
Special: You may only take this feat at 1st level.

Ugly
Drawback: You have a hideous appearance, giving you a -2 appearance penalty to all charisma-based skill checks, except for intimidate checks, for which you instead have a +2 appearance bonus. NPC's whose initial attitude toward you would be neutral or better is instead one category lower than it otherwise would be. This may be avoided by disguising or otherwise covering up the character's appearance at the DM's discretion, but such actions should come with their own risks or suspicions.
Special: You may only take this flaw as a 1st level character, and you can't take this flaw if you have the Attractive feat or anything other feat which grants you appearance bonuses.