Linking CHA and Beauty

[phindar]

If physical beauty has multiple causes, two possibilities being "high Charisma" and "player whining", but neither cause is necessary for physical beauty,

My feeling is, if something isn't necessary for it, its not linked. If it is linked, it will have an effect upon it; if it is not linked, it exists separately from it. It doesn't make any sense to me to say that there are two possible, completely distinct causes of physical beauty: 1) Charisma, 2) Whatever else you want it to be.

You never claimed a character needs a High CHA to be beautiful, or that a Low CHA character will be ugly, in fact, your example was the opposite. But that's precisely my point, if you accept that beautiful people can have Low CHA, and that ugly people can have High CHA, and that you can decide how beautiful/ugly your character is regardless of his CHA, in what way does CHA link to beauty?

 

[Delta]

Your CHA doesn't go up and down when you're talking to the elf or the dwarf, depending on which likes you better. Your CHA-related abilities stay the same. How you ask for things, what you look like, are subjective things. CHA is not. Its the force of your personality that determines how well you cast Sor spells, how many times per day you can Turn Undead, and how many points of healing your paladin can heal.

Of course, historically in D&D (1E, 2E) it did exactly that. Demihumans had a bonus or penalty to Cha that was rubbed out when interacting with their own race. Racial preferences were defined in a table and enforced in loyalty and morale modifiers.

Which really makes a lot of campaign-flavor sense, actually. I agree that the special-ability-tack-ons in 3E make the Cha stat look less sensical.

 

[Klaus]

Of course, historically in D&D (1E, 2E) it did exactly that. Demihumans had a bonus or penalty to Cha that was rubbed out when interacting with their own race. Racial preferences were defined in a table and enforced in loyalty and morale modifiers.

Which really makes a lot of campaign-flavor sense, actually. I agree that the special-ability-tack-ons in 3E make the Cha stat look less sensical.

Just adjust the Diplomacy DCs based on the situation. An orc trying to use Diplomacy on an elf should get a penalty for unfavorable conditions.

When an elf PC runs past an elf guard NPC and yells (Bluffing) "Those two orcs are trying to kill me!", the PC gets a bonus, since its a plausible lie (as per the Bluff table).

Appearance is purely roleplaying, IMHO. If a mechanic reflection of extremely good looks is needed, just take the Distinctive trait from Unearthed Arcana.

 

[Aaron L]

So if the numeric ability score is the source of the character's actual traits rather than a descriptor of them, then what exactly is "Charisma", in your view? What quality of the individual is simultaneously generating magical power and physical beauty? Is it just a "shut up; don't worry about it" stat like hit points?

Where does this fake division between Source and Descriptor come from?? I can ask the same question about Dexterity; does a high Dex cause a character to be good at dodging, or does a character being good at dodging cause them to have a high Dex? It's a false dichotomy. It's how the character is described in game stats. There's no call to say "shut up and don't worry about it" about this stat any more than there is to say that about high Strength letting you be better able to lift heavy things.

As stated earlier, the quality that is simultaneously generating magical power and physical beauty is Charisma in it's classical, ancient sense: a combination of divine favor and mystical connection to the universe, which can manifest as physical beauty, OR as a forceful personality, OR as raw animal magnetism, OR as charm and wit, OR as a frightening intimidating presence.

Or as powerful magical ability.

It's the same quality of "divine favor" that medieval kings claimed gave them the right to rule, and supposedly gave them the ability to cure diseases and wounds by laying their hands on their subjects (as the kings of France claimed they could do) and the same quality that the Pharaohs claimed made them both kings and gods.

This is what Charisma has always meant in D&D, ever since Paladins required a 17 Charisma in earlier editions, and now in 3E Paladins get bonuses to their saving throws based on their connection to the divine, and Sorcerers are more magically powerful based on their inherent magical influence... as defined by their Charisma stat.


I really don't understand people's resistance to the idea of Charisma and beauty being linked. It's the beauty and power of the soul shining through to be reflected in the beauty of the face; beauty as more than skin deep. You don't NEED to have a high Charisma to be beautiful, and you don't NEED to be beautiful to have a high Charisma, but there IS a connection. If a character has a high CHA stat, then they WILL have great ability in at least one element of the stat's constituent parts. To do otherwise would to say that your character with an 18 Strength is weak and can't fight and can't ift heavy things.


I'm really baffled by some of the arguments I'm hearing.

 

[phindar]

You don't NEED to have a high Charisma to be beautiful, and you don't NEED to be beautiful to have a high Charisma, but there IS a connection.

This is the part I can't wrap my head around. If there IS a connection between CHA and Beauty, but its not one that causes High CHA people to be beautiful, nor is it one that causes beautiful people to have a High CHA then what's the connection? If Beauty and CHA can be completely separate from one another, in what sense are they linked?

If a High CHA can make a character beautiful, but so can anything else, then what's the value of linking beauty to CHA?

 

[Delta]

Appearance is purely roleplaying, IMHO.

Obviously, we disagree -- for me, this is one of the points in favor of earlier editions.

 

[Banshee16]

Though I dobut those studies factor in other species (as would be present in a fantasy universe). Why would Trolls have the same standards of beauty as Elves?

You're probably right. Consider our world. Can you really tell which chimp is more beautiful?

Beauty is biologically linked, so most species would be completely neutral with respect to perceived physical beauty of another of their species. I think D&D is largely thrown off by the the fact that many PC races are basically humans with pointy ears. We're intrinsically limited in our ability to conceive of fantasy races by our own biology and human experience....it's all we really know, so by default, we imagine fantasy races being like us, and consequently, having similar images of beauty.

I think that in a fantasy world, maybe some of the races that crossbreed, like elves and humans, might find each other attractive, whereas others, like gnomes, halflings, and dwarves don't.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

My feeling is, if something isn't necessary for it, its not linked. If it is linked, it will have an effect upon it; if it is not linked, it exists separately from it. It doesn't make any sense to me to say that there are two possible, completely distinct causes of physical beauty: 1) Charisma, 2) Whatever else you want it to be.

You never claimed a character needs a High CHA to be beautiful, or that a Low CHA character will be ugly, in fact, your example was the opposite. But that's precisely my point, if you accept that beautiful people can have Low CHA, and that ugly people can have High CHA, and that you can decide how beautiful/ugly your character is regardless of his CHA, in what way does CHA link to beauty?

In the same way that you can meet someone who is physically unappealing, but has this magnetic, "joie de vivre" factor to their personality that gets other people around them all energized. On the flip side, by the gorgeous person you meet when out with friends, who ends up being a real jerk...bossy, pushy, ignorant, etc....to the the point that it doesn't matter how good looking they are...they annoy you to the point of wanting to pull your teeth out.

Banshee

 

[phindar]

But that's my point. In the course of the discussion several posters have said that CHA and beauty are linked, but they agree you can have High CHA uglies and Low CHA hotties. My question is not how can you have hotties with high and low CHA scores (as their are ample real world examples), but if you link Beauty and CHA, how do you justify characters with high and low CHA as hotties in the game?

That is to say, if CHA determines whether or not a character is physically attractive, but you agree that players can decide their Low CHA character is beautiful or High CHA character is ugly, isn't that like saying CHA has no effect on attractiveness? How does CHA determine beauty if the player gets to determine it on his own, regardless of his CHA score?

 

[shilsen]

But that's my point. In the course of the discussion several posters have said that CHA and beauty are linked, but they agree you can have High CHA uglies and Low CHA hotties. My question is not how can you have hotties with high and low CHA scores (as their are ample real world examples), but if you link Beauty and CHA, how do you justify characters with high and low CHA as hotties in the game?

That is to say, if CHA determines whether or not a character is physically attractive, but you agree that players can decide their Low CHA character is beautiful or High CHA character is ugly, isn't that like saying CHA has no effect on attractiveness? How does CHA determine beauty if the player gets to determine it on his own, regardless of his CHA score?

The simple method, for me, is to consider attractiveness as one among many factors that can affect Charisma. Emphasis on "can." So a PC with a high Cha can say that it's partly because s/he is hot, but doesn't have to. And similarly, a PC with a low Cha can say it's partly because s/he is unattractive, but doesn't have to.