Linking CHA and Beauty

[Asmor]

I've always been of the mind that charisma and beauty are totally unrelated. I dislike the fact that by RAW they are.

I actually think will saves should be CHA-based, and there should be a fourth save (perception) which is wisdom based

 

[Aaron L]

Pretty much how I do it. I would say though that many charismatic people are often _perceived_ as attractive, ie the causality is CHA --> HOT, not HOT --> CHA. And many good-looking people may have low CHA, especially if they have poor INT and/or WIS.

Thank you for putting in better terms something I was trying to get across. Being attractive DOES NOT cause a character have a high Charisma; having a high Charisma causes a character to be attractive.

Charisma in D&D goes by the classical definition, divine grace, mystical favor, and the like, IN ADDITION to the modern sense of the word; forceful presence, charm, persnal magnetism, etc.

1 and 2E Paladins didn't need a 17 Charisma because they had to be pretty or be charming; they needed a 17 Charisma because it represented a high level of divine favor. 3E Sorcerers don't get bonus spells because they are pretty or make pleasant company; they get them because they have a string connection to the mystical powers of the universe.

This is fantasy. Having a high Charisma, a divine grace or a powerful mystic potential, is expressed physically by being granted the bonus of being pretty. In other words; in this brand of fantasy the beauty of the soul can shine through and be reflected in a characters physical appearance.


Beauty DOES NOT grant high Charisma. High Charisma grants beauty.

I agree, but thats why I think CHA and beauty should be considered separate. If they are linked, by that logic you could make one character who is ugly and forceful, another meek and hot, and they could have the same CHA score. They would get the same number of bonus spells as Sorcerers, one for having a forceful personality, the other for being pretty.

A Sorcerers spells, and a Paladins aura of grace, and a Cleric's ability to turn undead are not a result of a forceful personality OR good looks. They are a result of a characters connection to the divine, or the mystic, or whatever you want to call it; Charisma in it's classic sense. So, neither the meek beauty nor the forceful homely character is getting bonus spells from either their looks or their personality. They're getting them from yet another aspect of Charisma. Good looks or personal magnetism are a side benefit to the mystical/divine connection that Charisma represents; it's the beauty and power of the character's soul shining through to be seen by the outside world on their face, and can shine though in many different ways; one characters beauty, another's charm, and yet another's leadership qualities.

Of course, a character's appearance is dictated by what the player wants (as it always should be), so a character with a high Charisma doesn't HAVE to be beautiful, anymore than a beautiful character HAVE to have a high Charisma; beauty is just one possible benefit of Charisma. But a character with a high Charisma DOES need to have one of these qualities, just as a character with a high Strength needs to be able to lift heavy things, or break down doors, or swing a sword well.

As I said before, ALL of the stats represent several disparate yet related attributes. Why make this one special case for Charisma having one of it's components removed? And why stop there? Should we go the 2E Skills & Powers route and divide every stat into multiple substats? (which, actually, I wouldn't be against, I kind of liked that idea; but not JUST for Charisma alone) Should we go the Palladium route and have a Physical Beauty stat?

I'm not seeing any benefit to this special case separation of Charisma from beauty when every other stat could be divided up as well.

I forget where they are all at the moment, but I've seen many Luck based feats and powers that run off of Charisma for exactly the same reason; divine favor, oneness with the universe, mystic potential, etc.

The DC Heroes game handles it well, and in the same manner as D&D. In it, a characters active Mystical stats, which dictate how magically powerful a character can be, also reflect strength of personality. It's to represent the mysterious, mystical, semi-divine nature of the special quality of Sapience, which is even now not really understood (called a spark of divinity in far too many fantasy settings and mythologies to list here). So in fantasy games like D&D, sapience is translated into a mystical and/or divine quality, it's called a Soul, and numerically represented by the Charisma stat.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Non-issue. 3.5's Charisma score doesn't measure beauty. It measures force of personality. Rules as written, beauty is a non-measured physical characteristic chosen entirely by the player--just like any other physical aspect of your character (hair color, eye color, skin color, tattoos, facial hair, etc.).

Physical attractivenss is mentioned in the SRD as being part of Charisma, but only a part of. You can have an attractive but weak-willed, vapid, character (low Cha) or you could have a dynamic but ugly leader (high Cha). In the same way, you can have your 18 Str character be a bulked out WWE wrestler or a wiry little guy. The scores modify dice rolls but don't dictate physical qualities. A 30 Str, Con, or Dex has zero impact on physical height and weight, and a 30 (or 3) Charisma has zero impact on physical beauty.

 

[phindar]

Being attractive DOES NOT cause a character have a high Charisma; having a high Charisma causes a character to be attractive.

Here's my two-fold problem with that. 1) There are abundant examples of high charisma uggos in the real world (as well as annoying beautiful people), and 2) I don't think there needs to be a mechanical component for what is a fluff consideration.

If a high Charisma causes a character to be attractive, can a high Charisma character be ugly? If you answer yes, then how is CHA linked to beauty? (If you can play an ugly character with a high CHA, but say a high CHA causes a character to be beautiful, how are you not saying "CHA is linked to physical attractiveness, except when you don't want it to be, then it isn't." And how is that different from saying they aren't linked, and you decide what your character looks like?)

When I read the CHA description in the book, it says "force of personality, personal magnetism, the ability to lead, and physical attractiveness" and in my head I start hearing the song One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does not belong. To me, it makes about as much sense as a description of Strength that reads "how hard you hit, how much you can carry, how high you can jump, and the color of your hair."

 

[Felix]

If a high Charisma causes a character to be attractive, can a high Charisma character be ugly? If you answer yes, then how is CHA linked to beauty? (If you can play an ugly character with a high CHA, but say a high CHA causes a character to be beautiful, how are you not saying "CHA is linked to physical attractiveness, except when you don't want it to be, then it isn't." And how is that different from saying they aren't linked, and you decide what your character looks like?)

Having a high Charisma is sufficient for being physically attractive, not necessary. This is a relationship between the two, but does not link them in a causal relationship which you seem fixated upon rejecting. You may have a high CHA and be physically unattractive, but because you are so charismatic, people will look beyond that. Jimmy Durante is a nice example of this.

This relationship also means that physical attractiveness can exist without charisma; but because of the lack of charisma, the individual will not be able to take advantage of his physical gift that a similarly attractive high-charisma person would.

When I read the CHA description in the book, it says "force of personality, personal magnetism, the ability to lead, and physical attractiveness" and in my head I start hearing the song One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does not belong. To me, it makes about as much sense as a description of Strength that reads "how hard you hit, how much you can carry, how high you can jump, and the color of your hair."

Lockpicking is controlled by Dexterity as well as are the athletic skills, and it is wholly possible to have an accomplished lockpicker who trips over his own feet: fine motor skills do not necessarily translate into athleticism. Do you not take issue with this as well?

Physical beauty is a part of the bundle of things that is affected by an individual's Charisma, just like the bundles of attributes the other statistics apply to.

And may I note that you may have left unnoticed my question from last page:

What benefit does adding another stat provide you (besides ending the "I'm better looking than you/no you're not" argument)?

It's not as if Charisma is busy modifying all that many thing in-game; don't you think adding another stat, and then providing situations where it would modify a roll would necessarily take away from CHA, the next most obvious choice for beauty-related interactions?​

 

[phindar]

This is a relationship between the two, but does not link them in a causal relationship which you seem fixated upon rejecting. You may have a high CHA and be physically unattractive, but because you are so charismatic, people will look beyond that. Jimmy Durante is a nice example of this.

This relationship also means that physical attractiveness can exist without charisma; but because of the lack of charisma, the individual will not be able to take advantage of his physical gift that a similarly attractive high-charisma person would.

You seem to be saying here that CHA and attractiveness are linked, but high CHA people can be ugly and low CHA people can be pretty. So, what's the link?

And may I note that you may have left unnoticed my question from last page:

What benefit does adding another stat provide you (besides ending the "I'm better looking than you/no you're not" argument)?

It's not as if Charisma is busy modifying all that many thing in-game; don't you think adding another stat, and then providing situations where it would modify a roll would necessarily take away from CHA, the next most obvious choice for beauty-related interactions?​

I'm not for adding another stat (though I have mentioned earlier editions/other games that did). My point is that physical attractiveness doesn't belong under CHA, and mechanically, doesn't show up anywhere else. What your character looks like is Fluff. We don't need mechanics for Fluff.

 

[Stalker0]

Just as a note for those who don't think charisma should be linked with beauty because its in the eye of the beholder, but realistically, charisma is in the eye of the beholder.

Getting a dwarf to do what you want could entail a stuborn, strong personality, while getting along with an elf might entail a giving, flexibile one. Even on earth, different cultures have different opinions on what is appealing both in looks and in presentation.

 

[phindar]

That's a fair point Stalker, but...

Your CHA doesn't go up and down when you're talking to the elf or the dwarf, depending on which likes you better. Your CHA-related abilities stay the same. How you ask for things, what you look like, are subjective things. CHA is not. Its the force of your personality that determines how well you cast Sor spells, how many times per day you can Turn Undead, and how many points of healing your paladin can heal.

 

[Felix]

You seem to be saying here that CHA and attractiveness are linked, but high CHA people can be ugly and low CHA people can be pretty. So, what's the link?

What is the link between heat and light?

You can have heat without light, light without heat, also both together, and also neither. And yet they are both an expression of energy.

Aaron L. already said as much quite succinctly, though you ignored that part of the post and focused on "CHA causes physical beauty". But so can other things, like a player deciding it so.

We don't need mechanics for Fluff.

And in this case we don't have mechanics for Fluff.

If it's mechanics you're complaining of, point me in the direction of the mechanics that govern how physically attractive a character is. If you cite the Charisma stat description, how can you read that phrase and otherwise unsupported sentence as anything but completely wide-open to allow players to do what they want? It's fluff, but part of Charisma is the physical body of the PC, attractive or unattractive.

 

[S'mon]

A 30 Str, Con, or Dex has zero impact on physical height and weight, and a 30 (or 3) Charisma has zero impact on physical beauty.

Personally I suggest that PCs weigh at least 10 lb per point of STR (I don't use Small-race PCs) or have a darn good reason why not. Of course a typical STR 18 type probably weighs more like 300 lb. Like CHA and beauty, strength and size are positively correlated, though one does not determine the other.