Pathfinder 1E Lisa Stevens, CEO of Paizo, commenting about ENWorld

[fba827]

Today, do we see more news articles and publication postings regarding 4e? Absolutely because there are more new products and more news items related to 4e (as it is the newer edition; 3.X got all the same coverage (if not more) when it was released.

But even historical comparison aside, I don't feel that there is any board ownership/moderation bias.

There are community members on both sides of the issue who are vocal about their stance. People who disagree with one side are going to see that particular vocal opposing subset as "glaring"

But no one stops them from stating their view point; though either side will get stopped once they cross certain lines that will start fights.

Now, if I saw the moderators being more strict with one camp vs. the other camp, then, yeah, I'd say the board is biased, but I haven't seen anything of that sort.

 

[xechnao]

I think what she is saying is not about how people are split over here but the impact EnWorld has had for 4e's promotion around the internet. It is obvious to me that EnWorld has played some role in the success of 4e's launch. Be it through flamewars or whatever else, it has hosted a show on a ground that made 4e more of a celebrity than it could have been by itself alone.
And it is obvious that since 4e drew so much attention on Enworld, bringing up any attention to 3e over here suffered because of it.

 

[Eosin the Red]

I don't play 4E or 3E. ENworld seems to have eaten the whole 4E enchilada and it ain't a pretty site. This used to be the site I came to hang out and read some really wicked ideas -- now the well has ebbed. The only ideas are system ideas. Right now there are maybe (if you stretch the boundaries) six topics that are not centered around 4E mechanics or the 3E/4E hate on the front page of general: one of those being a review and another asking about Dangerous Journeys. Four interesting threads. ENWorld has riches of creativity and idea power and all that is mustered into four threads?

Instead of marveling over someones wicked idea and offering feedback - I post here.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Is EN World anti 3.x?

Yes.

Is EN World anti 4th?

Yes. But as time has moved on... not as much.

There are a lot of posters on here who feel it is their right and almost duty to defend their favoured edition. It is this defence of a perceived attack that has led to most of the hostility on the boards. Most recently was a thread by Celtavian where he discusses his despondence at being left behind by his regular playing group because he just could not jive with 4e (with numerous well supported reasons - debatable but effectively how he felt). The attacks coming at him from a variety of pro 4e posters was almost staggering - some of the most disgusting posting I have seen on EN World. A complete and utter lack of empathy for someone who was disappointed at feeling left behind. (Out of interest, one of the flamers seemed to think that this particular forum was 4e only.)

I think the moderators have done a very good job under consistently difficult circumstances over the past few months. What is starting to happen though is the pro 3.x people are starting to go elsewhere. I think I'm in a good position to see this (I frequent the boards daily and play in a 4e game and run a 3.5 campaign - I enjoy both versions and can see the good and poor in each). Effectively I enjoy D&D and feel no reason to outright attack or defend either version of the game; but I very much notice the attacks that go on. I note how the same people are the ones rushing to defend either 3.x or 4e. It would be better for EN World if these same people just... stopped doing it. But they persist.

I think Lisa is partially right in both what she says and her reasoning. Let's face it, there has been a severe lack of "love" on these boards for quite a while. Things are getting better now but possibly, this is only through attrition. A lot of the old faces don't post as much, and a lot of the general friendliness has gone out the window (see previous paragraph).

As for affecting sales and what not, that is out of my province of knowledge. I'll leave that up to Lisa and Morrus to sort out and explain.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I don't play 4E or 3E. ENworld seems to have eaten the whole 4E enchilada and it ain't a pretty site. This used to be the site I came to hang out and read some really wicked ideas -- now the well has ebbed. The only ideas are system ideas. Right now there are maybe (if you stretch the boundaries) six topics that are not centered around 4E mechanics or the 3E/4E hate on the front page of general: one of those being a review and another asking about Dangerous Journeys. Four interesting threads. ENWorld has riches of creativity and idea power and all that is mustered into four threads?

Yes. Yes that is pretty sad. Maybe once time has taken its course, discussion of new mechanics will be replaced by the discussion of new (and wicked) ideas. I certainly hope it is something that's cyclical and not a permanent change for the worse.

Instead of marveling over someones wicked idea and offering feedback - I post here.

I think it is very important that this point of view is heard though... slightly different to the whole 3E/4E bias but certainly indicative of the site regressing. Thank you for posting it.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Orius]

I think she's overstating ENWorld's stand on 4e.

Where did I go first when I first heard about 4e? ENWorld. Why? Because I remembered a little site that first popped up 8 years earlier when 3e was announced, run by a guy named Eric Noah. A site that was very informative about what 3e was going to be.

A site that would one day become ENWorld.

So why would I go anywhere else to learn about 4e? I new I'd find what I was looking for here. Why wouldn't ENWorld have a lot of coverage on 4e? This is where a lot of people come to look for news about D&D and d20 games in particular. I'd think, given that, that there'd be a good deal of coverage on a new edition.

I don't think there's a bias in particular, but generally most of the stuff that gets talked around here is current. Older stuff is occasionally talked about, but it's not a big feature of these boards, many of the people who like the classic editions have their own little communities.

 

[Alzrius]

There are a lot of posters on here who feel it is their right and almost duty to defend their favoured edition. It is this defence of a perceived attack that has led to most of the hostility on the boards. Most recently was a thread by Celtavian where he discusses his despondence at being left behind by his regular playing group because he just could not jive with 4e (with numerous well supported reasons - debatable but effectively how he felt). The attacks coming at him from a variety of pro 4e posters was almost staggering - some of the most disgusting posting I have seen on EN World. A complete and utter lack of empathy for someone who was disappointed at feeling left behind. (Out of interest, one of the flamers seemed to think that this particular forum was 4e only.)

This.

I was appalled by not only the vitriol leveled at Celtavian, but at by the number of posters who stopped by for no other reason that to unleash their venom on him. Honestly, the mods were far too lenient in that thread, since quite a few of the people who have been making these forums less friendly showed up there; they should have been assigning week-long bans to everyone who engaged in personal attacks, rather than just giving a warning.

 

[Griego]

I think that Celtavian brought it on himself a little bit, with the melodramatic tone of his post. From the title of the post to him telling people not to argue with him, that's just flamebait plain and simple. If you want to reduce edition war threads, you've got to put a stop to flamebait as well as flamers.

 

[xechnao]

I think she's overstating ENWorld's stand on 4e.

Sigh. No, she does not. Remember pro- has a different meaning than neg-. You can promote something by being against it. OTOH negation is the opposite of promotion. Did EnWorld negate anything of-on 4e? On the contrary, we can pretty much say that EnWorld has been 100% pro 4e. It has been so much pro, it can't really be any more than this.

Where did I go first when I first heard about 4e? ENWorld. Why? Because I remembered a little site that first popped up 8 years earlier when 3e was announced, run by a guy named Eric Noah. A site that was very informative about what 3e was going to be.

A site that would one day become ENWorld.

So why would I go anywhere else to learn about 4e? I new I'd find what I was looking for here. Why wouldn't ENWorld have a lot of coverage on 4e? This is where a lot of people come to look for news about D&D and d20 games in particular. I'd think, given that, that there'd be a good deal of coverage on a new edition.

I don't think there's a bias in particular, but generally most of the stuff that gets talked around here is current. Older stuff is occasionally talked about, but it's not a big feature of these boards, many of the people who like the classic editions have their own little communities.

The fact is that Enworld has a store that was selling 3e stuff. If EnWorld managed somehow to be 100% pro 3e while being 100% pro 4e at the same time, perhaps this could minimize 3e sales loss of its shop. What Linae Stevens is saying, is that this most probably did not happen. Why?
Oh, there are many reasons, one for example being their drag of their new license which managed to impose an unclear relationship of 3e with the revolutionary system of 4e, a relationship they managed to drag for a significant amount of time. As attention was 100% at 4e and there was an established relation among 4e and 3e, it is obvious that 3e suffered even more because of it, since 3e seemed more of a follower than a partner or rival at the time.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think what she is saying is not about how people are split over here but the impact EnWorld has had for 4e's promotion around the internet. It is obvious to me that EnWorld has played some role in the success of 4e's launch.

I am still not sure how important these internet wars actually are for the success of any edition - but particularly something as large as D&D (in the context of Roleplaying Games, of course).

But I am certain that stuff like the PHB Lite or Raiders of Oakhurst that gave you a shot at the 4E experience before it was published, were a great resource for anyone surfing the web for 4E information. I think that this was WotC biggest marketing success (as related to the web, at least).
I don't know if the accompanied edition wars and design philosophy discussions did factor into it that much, but they might have.

The fact that designers, developers and managers from WotC post also here also helps a lot.

And let's face it - EN World started as a D&D news site. It had to have a lot of coverage on 4E to be what it has always been. If that hurts EN World PDF sales because people don't like coverage on 4E - be it in news or discussions - then it's their fault. (Even it it becomes EN World Stores problem).

But I think the problem is really that some people just don't want to accept that the discussion is always on current topics.And the current topic is the new edition of D&D. That doesn't mean that 3E is dead, but it is no longer what people need to talk about. They did that for 8 years, and think about how many topics have been repeated over and over. Only when new products launched, a lot of new discussion was spurned. But the new product is no longer 3E, it's 4E.

If 3E had gone on and Paizo had put out a Pathfinder system (not that they would have then, I suppose), the number of threads on it would probably be no higher than it is currently - look at the threads on Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes, True20, Star Wars (all 3 versions) or whatever other d20 related systems you can find. They don't get that much continuous coverage. There is a spike in interest when they appear, and then it ebbs down, maybe with the occasional spike with threads like "Tell me about Arcana Evolved", "Your favorite Star Wars RPG?" "Wealth System Broken (d20 Modern)?"...

And how does she suppose could Morrus change the higher 4E focus? Artificially limiting the number of threads created for 4E? Increased hostility against 4E? How do you manipulate your board members so that they discuss "evenly" on topics?