Pathfinder 1E Lisa Stevens, CEO of Paizo, commenting about ENWorld

[Wicht]

I'm not sure that supports your point; my experience with Books-a-Million is that they get their D&D product when someone sells it off at rock-bottom prices because it isn't moving - in many cases that someone is WoTC. If they've got a lot of something than it generally means it wasn't selling through other channels.

I think you are thinking of Half-price books. Books-a-Million is in the same vein as Barnes&Nobles and Waldenbooks. Ours also carries Paizo, Green Ronin, etc.

 

[Griego]

Posting a calm, reasonable critique of a game, and stating that one's position on said game cannot be moved by means of argument, does not given anyone the divine right to *attack* the *person* (not the game, or another game, or whatever) and get away with it.

Except that, on these forums it does, apparently.

Lisa Stevens definitely has the right of it, sadly.

No, posting in a "woe is me" tone with "don't argue with me" is like waving a lamb chop at a pack of wolves.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

From my PoV, while they were "on the fence" so to speak, they seemed biased against the idea of switching editions from the start. I'm not saying they out and out trashed 4E; Paizo employees act pretty much as you'd expect, like professionals. Still, I got the sense early on they did not care for 4E and did not really want to work with it. I assume there were some happy sighs of relief when most of their customers agreed.

That's the revisionism Wicht was referring to, though, Caliber. I didn't get that sense from Paizo until it became clear that the GSL and it's terms were not going to be released until after 4E was. You need to remember, and not revise, that WotC basically screwed everyone around on this for ages, constantly delaying and chopping and changing it's plans.

If you felt Paizo had a "negative vibe" towards 4E before WotC started messing them around, I'd love to see a link or hear some specific info about why you felt that. Otherwise, yeah, that sounds like EXACTLY what Wicht was talking about.

 

[The Little Raven]

That's a full 7 months after the announcement.

October 2007 is when Pathfinder development began. March 2008 (the 7 months you're talking about) was when the first Alpha was released.

 

[Obryn]

I'll also note that Lisa probably has a wrong idea of what I'm supposing ENW's business model is.

Paizo is primarily a merchant. They sell stuff. They make stuff, too, which they then sell. The boards are there to promote that primary activity.

I am fairly certain that ENWorld, in contrast, makes most of their money off advertising - that is, pageviews and eyeballs. News, controversy, and discussion all help to fuel this. EN Publishing is an offshoot of the primary business, and I'm sure it's a fair supplementary income, but it's nothing like Paizo.

I think what Lisa is suggesting would have been a perfectly fine business strategy for a merchant. For a traffic-driven website, though, it's not.

-O

 

[dmccoy1693]

October 2007 is when Pathfinder development began. March 2008 (the 7 months you're talking about) was when the first Alpha was released.

Paizo decided in March to go with Pathfinder RPG, not Oct, only because they ran out of time for Pathfinder Adventure Path development. They were smart enough to begin a backup plan in Oct 07 just incase things in 4E didn't go as planned. Until the day the decided to go Pathfinder RPG, it was up in the air.

 

[Wicht]

October 2007 is when Pathfinder development began. March 2008 (the 7 months you're talking about) was when the first Alpha was released.

Huh?

The announcement for Pathfinder RPG was also made in march. Granted Jason Bulhman had been told earlier to work on it in secret but it was, according to those involved, because the company did not know which way it would end up going and wanted to be prepared either way.

When the first Alpha was released in March, it was released in small chunks precisely because Paizo had not been solidly behind the effort before March and so did not have all the rules lined up, ready to go.

 

[Caliber]

How many new 3.x adventure did goodman put out this year? 0. How many new products of any kind did necro put out since last gencon? 0.

Sorry, but these aren't the best examples.

If you can provide better ones, in either direction, I invite you to do so. I admit the data is scant on each side of the issue here.

How early is early? They have never been anti-4E. But they did decide they needed to keep making product (unlike Orcus for whom RPG making is a hobby) and had to decide what system that product was going to take in March. That's a full 7 months after the announcement.

7 Months after the announcement, Wizards couldn't get 3PPs the rules? Paizo didn't decide to go any direction; Wizards didn't give them a choice (unless you count "Go their own way or fold the company since they can't produce product for an unknown amount of time" a choice).

While not in my best interest (which would be Paizo producing cool 4E stuff for me) I never said Paizo didn't act in their own best interest. The whole thing with the GSL being so delayed definitely put them in a very, very rough spot and more or less forced their hand.

But even before that announcement, I felt that Paizo as a whole was trending against 4E. I don't want to really call out any of the employees there, as I think they're all cool people, but I have seen several express opinions reflecting a dislike of 4E, and remember similar feelings regarding the previews very early on in the process (I first begin visiting Paizo around late December/early January in order to get away from the flamewars going on over here at the time. Little did I know that the flamewars going on over at Paizo were a raging inferno compared to ENWorld's bonfire.)

 

[phloog]

....Celtavian started the thread by making the analogy of being married to D&D, and that it was a trollop trying to please the masses with 4E. I do not consider that a nice analogy. It is very likely to be taken as an insult by people that like 4E. ....

While the wording might be considered provocative, I would suggest that one of the biggest problems with this whole community is members who take a slam of a game system created by a large company as an insult to themselves.

Imagine how nice this place could be if people didn't seem to see themselves as defined by their game system of choice? Me not liking 4e doesn't make you a buffoon for liking it.

If I said "All 4e fans are idiots", that's me insulting them...if I say "I see 4e as a complete abomination" (which is more extreme than my own real view), then why can't people be secure enough on their own to not find offense in that? Are people really that insecure that they can't allow anyone to speak ill of their favorite version of a little game where you pretend to be wizards?

 

[Gallo22]

Yep, I've been on these boards off and on since 2002. I find myself coming back less and less these days. I think I'm about done here now.

Yup, ditto here.

I usually only stop by now and then to see if there is any good PathFinder news, but usually there isn't.

All I see is the same 4th edition threads repeated over and over. I remember coming here almost everyday and seeing great new ideas and suggestions. Not much now-a-days.

Another reason I usually don't come back here to often is due to vile posters like the guy with the "got milk" avatar. His name escapes me. There is a good handful of posters like him here on ENWorld and it just ruins the whole fun of the site.

For the record, while I don't agree with the "Lisa" bashing (another reason I don't come here much any more as it was a pretty harmless comment), I don't necessarily agree with her comments. I think ENWorld is consistant with being neutal about editions. They just want a site about D&D news. 4th Edition is the new kid on the block and it's going to get talked about.