List of broken PrCs

[Mark Chance]

Actually, that's the point of a Prestige Class. They are more powerful, in return for having entry requirements ...

I don't think the PrC should be more powerful regardless of entry requirements. What I mean is this: A 20th-level fighter and a 10th-level fighter/10th-lever dwarven defender (for example) should be about equal to each other overall, even if the PrC does excel in comparison in a limited area.

I've written a handful of PrCs for 3rd-party publishers (i.e., the psychic interloper in Path of Shadow), and I make an effort to compare the PrC to the core classes level-to-level in order to keep things about on par.

 

[Darklone]

I've written a handful of PrCs for 3rd-party publishers (i.e., the psychic interloper in Path of Shadow), and I make an effort to compare the PrC to the core classes level-to-level in order to keep things about on par.

Which probably leads to complaints about your classes being too weak?

 

[Mark Chance]

Which probably leads to complaints about your classes being too weak?

It wouldn't surprise me, but I've only run into once (and I agreed with the reviewer). The most frequent complaint I see about PrCs isn't that they're too weak, but that they're too powerful.

I also recall reading somewhere (in an article by Monte Cook?) that PrCs are supposed to be generally balanced in comparison to the core classes at the same character level.

The idea works well for me. I've not had an editor request that I power up any PrC submitted for publication.

But, as stated earlier in this thread, categories such as "unbalanced" or "broken" are often too subjective to serve much purpose.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

If by that you mean Rogue 1/Wizard X is good, then yes, I'll agree with you. But a Rogue X/Wizard X is very, very weak. Low skills, low sneak attack, low spellcasting. There is no way you CAN compete. And a rogue/sorcerer only makes it worse.

"Very, very weak?" Hyperbole at best. "Low skills?" Utter stuff and nonsense. Laughable.

A Rogue X/Wizard X simply has fewer skills maxxed out than a equal-level rogue, if he's trained at all sensibly (that is, alternating rogue and wizard levels). And needs fewer, since there are several rogue skills that are easily replaced by low-level wizard spells. You'll end up with not as tough a thug as a rogue, to be sure, but you can still be fairly good at that plus be a much better scout.

The only thing a rogue/wizard is poor at is being something he's not: an assassin. At being an "arcane trickster," he's already quite good. To ladle on full spell and sneak attack progression with special abilities, on top of skill points roughly as good as the multiclass option, is dunderheaded.

 

[Darklone]

Well... a rogue10/wiz3 does not miss that little extra sneak attack damage... but he enjoys some nice little gimmick spells by his own. Spiderclimb, Jump, Shield or invisibility comes handy even at these levels now and then.

Sure, you could buy wandss... and scrollsss... and potionssssss. But relying a little bit on your own abilities doesn't hurt either. At least in campaigns where you can't rely on the next potion shop.

 

[Endur]

Ban all PRCs in a low magic campaign

In the low magic campaign that I ran, I banned all PRCs for Player Characters.

That way, you avoid arguments over which PRCs are broken and which are not.

I had thought about allowing a few PRCs, a Knight, etc. Then I realized that the generic Fighter class does a good job as a Knight, since it gives access to the mounted feats and the weapon feats and the ride skill.

So I decided I really didn't need any PRCs.

Tom

 

[yennico]

Thanks to all for their input.

Unfortunately I had not the time to read this thread before the character generation took place, but my players made an unanimous desicion which I did not expected, but I´m happy about it
They voted for banning all PrCs and all spells & feats which are not in the PHB.
So D&D 3.0 core rules only.

To understand this desicion you should know the following:
Before I started this new campaign, another player was DM.
We played the WOTC adventure path modules (till Iron Fortress reaching level 17).
Our adventure band consisted out of:
Human, Fighter/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple
Halfling, Barbarian/Rogue/Cleric/Fighter/Shadowdancer/Wizard
Half-elf Rogue/Sorcerer later replaced by a Human Human, Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage
Human Fighter/ Bard
and a NPC Elf Cleric

Juts my 2 cents
yennico

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why won't they make PrCs that make you NOT loose caster levels?

I don't know that I agree.

Any Prestige Class that has non-ludicrous entry requirements, gives Nifty Powerz, and full spellcasting progression is overpowered.

7/10 caster progression still lets you make 9th level spells by level 20, but means that you're giving something up for the Nifty Powerz, and makes it less of a "Duh" choice for a sorcerer to take a PrC.

That's my main problem with the idea that a Prestige Class should be more powerful than a core class within a speciality.

Sure, a 20th level fighter is the most versatile combatant class around. You can make an Archer Ftr20, or a Mounted Ftr20, or a Two-Weapon Ftr20, or a Two-Handed Damage Machine Ftr20.

But... if the OotBI is a better archer, and the Cavalier is a better mounted fighter, and the Tempest is a better two-weapon fighter, and the Frenzied Berzerker is a better damage machine... then the fighter's versatility is illusory. You can make a Ftr20 a better mounted combatant than the OotBI... but what's the point? If you want mounted combat, you play a Cavalier.

When there's a Prestige Class that covers every niche, more powerfully than the core classes, the higher levels of the core classes become irrelevant.

And I don't like that.

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

I don't know that I agree.

Any Prestige Class that has non-ludicrous entry requirements, gives Nifty Powerz, and full spellcasting progression is overpowered.

7/10 caster progression still lets you make 9th level spells by level 20, but means that you're giving something up for the Nifty Powerz, and makes it less of a "Duh" choice for a sorcerer to take a PrC.

The problem here is that a lot of PrCs are meant to represent being "uber" at some particular spellcasting specialty. It's hard to think of someone as being the best at casting boom spells, or summoning demons, or just plain commanding the forces of magic, when the other guy gets 9th level boom spells, or 9th level summoning spells, or ANY 9th level spells, before he does.

IOW, it's an issue with how a spellcasting class tends to derive most (if not all) of its power from those spells. You can slow down a PrC's spellcasting progression, but that may run counter to what the class is supposed to be.

But... if the OotBI is a better archer, and the Cavalier is a better mounted fighter, and the Tempest is a better two-weapon fighter, and the Frenzied Berzerker is a better damage machine... then the fighter's versatility is illusory. You can make a Ftr20 a better mounted combatant than the OotBI... but what's the point? If you want mounted combat, you play a Cavalier.

When there's a Prestige Class that covers every niche, more powerfully than the core classes, the higher levels of the core classes become irrelevant.

I don't see that as a problem, though. There are people who _like_ playing generalists, even if all their possible roles are filled by PrCs. They may not be the best in the world at any one particular task, but they can do them all with reasonable expertise.

If you put the OotBI in melee combat, he's suddenly a lot less frightening than from 30 feet away. If you take the cavalier's horse away, he's just a guy with a sword. If you attack the berserker from range, he's just a target. However, a ftr20 with 11 bonus feats, spread over all these niches (Rapid Shot, Spirited Charge, Great Cleave) can still make a pretty good show regardless of the circumstances. That's the basic tradeoff when it comes to PrCs.

 

[Al]

Dragon Child: Caster level analysis is good, but not as straightforward as you make it appear. Remember that characters does not have to take every PrC to level ten.

For example, the BBEG of my last campaign was a Transmuter12/Fatespinner8. Still had 9th level spells, and could slap on 3 points to already high DCs. Using the d20 DC rule and the rerolls, boost DCs even higher- and reroll the victim's saving throws if they make it

To be fair, it's probably less useful as a PC PrC though.