D&D 3E/3.5 List of Problem 3.5e spells? Where?

[Vurt]

Now, if the player does come up with something in the rules that you had not thought of then it is perfectly fine to talk with them and come up with something later. However, most of the comments made here have seemed to be more like the dm saying, 'oh, clever, I know how to reward cleverness.. where is my Smite Button..' and I have seen a lot of dms like this in real life. That may not be your intent, but I feel it is definately my place to try and point out that it shouldnt happen that way.

I would expect most DM's love cleverness, I know I certainly do. In games I go out of my way to reward it. But using the Gate spell to try and get cheap wishes doesn't strike me so much as clever as it does like rules abuse. And why should I reward that?

The problem I see isn't characters with +5 inherent bonuses to everything. The problem lies with them trying to do it without paying the full (xp) cost. As they say, you get what you pay for, and I try to make sure the game stays fun and balanced for everyone, players and myself included.

My point is simply that problem spells don't have to stay problem spells simply because the game logic is written in ink (blood?). Some things you just have to say "sorry, it just doesn't work that way," and get back to telling a good story.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Nail]

... problem spells don't have to stay problem spells simply because the game logic is written in ink (blood?). Some things you just have to say "sorry, it just doesn't work that way," and get back to telling a good story.

...which is the point of this thread, actually. None of us disagree with your contention.

BTW, the wiz-board thread is good, but I think it casts it's net too broadly. Reading through it, I would agree (for my own personal use) that the following spells have problems (underpowered, overpowered, or bad mechanics):

Alter Self
Astral Projection
Blasphemy
Cone of Cold
Darkness (Deeper Darkness)
Ethereal Jaunt
Fabricate
Gate
Mord's Disjunction
Polar Ray
Polymorph
Ray of Enfeeblement
Shapechange
Silence
True Seeing


....and right now, IMC, Silence is the one I'll concentrate on. The rest are high enoough level that I don't have to worry about it.

 

[Scion]

there is another thread or two about silence currently running.

My suggestion was to treat it sortof like deafness, 20% spell failure. At least for its use as a counterspell. When someone readies an action to cast silence on you when you next cast a spell, you will have a 20% chance of loseing the spell. Quick and easy.

This has rule correlations already (being deaf is 20% spell failure) and makes some logical sense without breaking it. It is still useful but not overpowering in all cases. (especially as not every spell has a V component, just like not every spell has a S component)

Just like still spell gets over arcane spell failure in equipment, silent spell will get over the problem of being in a silenced area. Near perfect correlation, not completely, but so close as to make a good fix

 

[Caliban]

Sure, but the DM is going to have to break the rules in order to have this actually happen. By the rules, the efreeti's wish-granting ability duplicates the effects of the spell: No special twisting. Moreover, since the efreeti are called, you could just kill them after the wish-granting is done and not worry about them holding a grudge.

Actually, I don't think that would be breaking the rules at all. Remember, you aren't the one casting the spell, the Efreet is.

It's different when you are casting the spell yourself, you can choose to do one of the safe options off the list. The efreet can choose to word it in an unsafe way that doesn't give one of the safe options. That's what you get when you try to subcontract.

 

[James McMurray]

What Caliban (and others) said.

most of the comments made here have seemed to be more like the dm saying, 'oh, clever, I know how to reward cleverness.. where is my Smite Button..'

Twisting the rules is not clever in character, its clever out of character. That sort of thing shouldn't be rewarded with an ingame effect. Nobody here has said to twist all wishes, we've just said to twist those that are gined by force from evil creatures for selfish reasons.

For other problems spells: Holy Word and its ilk can be quite problematic. With all of the various ays out there to increase your caster level, it is pretty easy to turn this into an instant death spell. Even if you an't get high enough to kill the foe straight out, you can usually get high enough to daze or paralyze them long enough that they're dead before they come out of it.

 

[Scion]

Twisting the rules is not clever in character, its clever out of character. That sort of thing shouldn't be rewarded with an ingame effect. Nobody here has said to twist all wishes, we've just said to twist those that are gined by force from evil creatures for selfish reasons.

It all depends on what you call twisting, and every dm has a different limit that they will go to. These limits should be spelled out before the problems occur. For a lot of players looking at this spell and at some point going, 'hey, that guy we just had to fight the other day.. when I looked it up he could grant wishes, I could call one and have him grant me wishes!' Perfectly in character, reasonable, and even clever in some ways. Abusive? Perhaps, but that is a problem with the spell, not with the character or player trying to do creative things with it. If they had instead gated in some other creature for some other ability they had used on them then there probably wouldnt be a problem, unless it was too powerful for their level. Again, a problem with the spell, not with creative uses.

It just goes on and on. You have a problem with it, fine, most dm's probably would. Now that you are aware of it go fix it, dont complain about it here since as written it may very well be within the rules.

Take any creature that you gate in. If you take the route above about twisting the wish, as it seems at least some will, then anytime you give any gated creature a command it will probably do its utmost to make sure that backfires in some way. 'Hey big powerful dragon I just gated! Kill that guy over there!' "Whatever you say master, now I will kill you first and then kill him" or "all right, I will kill you both at the same time" or any number of other things.

At this point the spell is nearly worthless unless you spend the first 6 or 7 rounds saying all of the things not to do. Pretty well sucks as a combat spell then. Will any creatures at all be happy to be gated in? few if any.

See? I can go too far in the other direction as well. Obviously a badly worded, much needing of fixing spell. All agreed? Good then, lets move on, thanks all

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Nope. Use of spell-like abilities to mimic spells that require experience point costs are never immediate tasks. Sorry.

Where exactly is this written in the rules? Wish doesn't cost the efreet any xp, so it's no different to the efreet than asking it to cast a Fireball...

 

[Caliban]

Take any creature that you gate in. If you take the route above about twisting the wish, as it seems at least some will, then anytime you give any gated creature a command it will probably do its utmost to make sure that backfires in some way. 'Hey big powerful dragon I just gated! Kill that guy over there!' "Whatever you say master, now I will kill you first and then kill him" or "all right, I will kill you both at the same time" or any number of other things.

Not any gated creature. Just Gated creatures who don't have the same goals as you, and may severely dislike the tasks you set for them. Gate is very powerful, but also has it's risks.

Gating in that Solar to help you fight a demon horde led by a Balor? No Problem, that's what Solar's live for.

Gating in a Solar to help you fight a Gold Dragon who hasn't been doing any harm to you (or the locals) just because you want it's horde? The solar will misunderstand your commands at every opportunity, and might even pay you a visit after the spell ends.

 

[James McMurray]

It all depends on what you call twisting, and every dm has a different limit that they will go to. These limits should be spelled out before the problems occur.

And how exactly do you propoe that this be done? Given the extreme versatility of Wish, its utterly impossible to spell out beforehand how different wishes will be interpreted by evil creatures forced into granting them.

For a lot of players looking at this spell and at some point going, 'hey, that guy we just had to fight the other day.. when I looked it up he could grant wishes, I could call one and have him grant me wishes!' Perfectly in character, reasonable, and even clever in some ways. Abusive? Perhaps, but that is a problem with the spell, not with the character or player trying to do creative things with it. If they had instead gated in some other creature for some other ability they had used on them then there probably wouldnt be a problem, unless it was too powerful for their level. Again, a problem with the spell, not with creative uses.

Where did the character go to look it up? And if he does decide to try that, then he'll learn the har way that it isn't good to try to force an evil creature to grant you wishes.

It just goes on and on. You have a problem with it, fine, most dm's probably would. Now that you are aware of it go fix it, dont complain about it here since as written it may very well be within the rules.

And having evil creatures twist wishes they are forced to make isn't a fix? My party has gotten a wish from an efreet in the past. They freed it from its bounds and gained two wishes. The first they used to wish away a statue that was in the room. They knew there was a seret door behind it but were afraid of a trap. The efreet teleported the statue to a nearby city, aproximately 500' in the air above a temple of a god the efreet didn't like.

The second wish was for an item capable of harming the creature that had captured the efreet in he first place. A permanent item was beyond the bounds of the wish spell, so he gave them a mace. When the mace struck the demilich they were hunting down it exploded, dealing no damage to the party but lots of damage tot he demilich.

See, when getting wishes from evil, you have to assume that the creature will always try to fulfill its own agenda while granting the wish.

Take any creature that you gate in. If you take the route above about twisting the wish, as it seems at least some will, then anytime you give any gated creature a command it will probably do its utmost to make sure that backfires in some way.

What? You meant hat gating in an extremely powerful evil creature and foring it into servitude could be a dangerous endeavor? Wow! I can see where you'd think that would be just plain silly.

'Hey big powerful dragon I just gated! Kill that guy over there!' "Whatever you say master, now I will kill you first and then kill him" or "all right, I will kill you both at the same time" or any number of other things.

The first wouldn't be allowed, because it doesn't involve carrying out the order given. The second is ok. If the dragon can arrange it so that both summoner and target are in the area of its breath, it not only can, but it should. The summoner may want to use their next command to clarify that they and their party not be hurt in the process.

At this point the spell is nearly worthless unless you spend the first 6 or 7 rounds saying all of the things not to do. Pretty well sucks as a combat spell then. Will any creatures at all be happy to be gated in? few if any.

The spell is only worthless if you gate in extrmely powerful evil creatures and force them to do your bidding. Or if you gate in extremely powerful good creatures and try to force them to do evil. Basically, if you gate in a creature for something it wouldn't mind doing (a celestial to fight demons for instance) then you won't have any problems. As my party has learned though, don't gate in extrmely powerful creatures for trivial reasons. They once gated ina Solar to fight a few demons. The battle was over less than 2 rounds later and the Solar hadn't needed to be there. While the party was in a future battle the Solar gated the cleric of the group out (the one that had done the summoning) and forced him to stand in the corner while hi friends fought and died. He then told the cleric not to summon his kind again for any but the most urgent of tasks.

See? I can go too far in the other direction as well. Obviously a badly worded, much needing of fixing spell. All agreed? Good then, lets move on, thanks all

Just because you can overreact doesn't mean that I am or that anyone else is. I personally don't think that the gate spell in 3.5 is badly worded or in need of fixing. All that it needs is a logical application of the principal that all causes have effects. Gating ina creature is a cause with extremely varied effects depending upon the creature and the task assigned.

 

[Scion]

Gating in that Solar to help you fight a demon horde led by a Balor? No Problem, that's what Solar's live for.

Oh? Possible, but open to interpretation especially by some of the dm's on here. Maybe it was in the middle of a battle already that you called it from, perhaps it was meeting with its diety, maybe it has heard of you doing this before and severly dislikes you presuming. Who knows? There are literally an unlimited amount of reasons why it may not want to help you, or why it would be upset about being called, even for killing some random demons.