D&D 3E/3.5 List of Problem 3.5e spells? Where?

[Scion]

Just because you can overreact doesn't mean that I am or that anyone else is.

You are right, it doesnt mean that anyone is, me least of all. I am merely tossing back what others have said in the exact opposite light. Devils advocate if you will, but if you dont like that feel free.

If one creature can choose to not follow what you say then any creature could choose not to do so. Letter of the law and all. If this is an option for one of your pc's to take then it should be made clear that this is what you consider 'abuse' and not 'cleverness'. That is all I am saying, and have said the same thing over and over again.

I'll just go over it again though I suppose. If it can be twisted one way, then it can be twisted another. If there is obviously a problem that can be exploited, and easily, while still seeming to stay within the actual intent of the spell then either you have to let it happen or change it. This thread is to try and show some abuses and help to change it appropriately perhaps.

Now, say there is a creature who is Lawful Good. The epitomy of lawful good in fact, and you are a follower of a lawful good god, one that this creature is a direct servent to. You gate it in, say that you want these wishes for the inherant bonuses in order to serve your diety better and be a stronger force for law and good in this plane. Now, why would it not capitulate? If you let it do this then you are granting the wishes which was the complaint. This gets around your evil guy twisting, or someone with cross motives. He may even 'want' to do it since at this level you may be a favorite of this god anyway. Now he has +5 inherant to all of his stats for an incredibly reduced cost.

So is there a problem? with the efreet? with this guy? elsewhere? If you dont believe that the character should get the wishes then neither case should work, if you believe the second should work then there has to be a way to make the first work as well. Pick one, either they both 'could' work or neither could.

 

[The Hanged Man]

Not any gated creature. Just Gated creatures who don't have the same goals as you, and may severely dislike the tasks you set for them. Gate is very powerful, but also has it's risks.

Gating in that Solar to help you fight a demon horde led by a Balor? No Problem, that's what Solar's live for.

Gating in a Solar to help you fight a Gold Dragon who hasn't been doing any harm to you (or the locals) just because you want it's horde? The solar will misunderstand your commands at every opportunity, and might even pay you a visit after the spell ends.

But doesn't Gate say you "control" the creature? The Gated creature shouldn't just be following the letter of your commands, it should be doing what you want it to do. Only if commands have been unclear, and there's multiple ways for the creature to acomplish the goals, should the creature even have any choice but to do exactly what the caster wants.

Of course, I agree the Solar will get its revenge for being cruelly used . . .

 

[James McMurray]

You are right, it doesnt mean that anyone is, me least of all. I am merely tossing back what others have said in the exact opposite light. Devils advocate if you will, but if you dont like that feel free.

Thanks!

If one creature can choose to not follow what you say then any creature could choose not to do so. Letter of the law and all. If this is an option for one of your pc's to take then it should be made clear that this is what you consider 'abuse' and not 'cleverness'. That is all I am saying, and have said the same thing over and over again.

That's true, any creature could choose to. Its just that creatures which are summoned for purposes they believe in generally won't try to screw you over. That's all that I'm saying, and have said over and over again.

I'll just go over it again though I suppose. If it can be twisted one way, then it can be twisted another. If there is obviously a problem that can be exploited, and easily, while still seeming to stay within the actual intent of the spell then either you have to let it happen or change it. This thread is to try and show some abuses and help to change it appropriately perhaps.

Seeming to stay within the actual intent of the spell and actually staying within the intent of the spell are two seperate things. And since we aren't the designers we can only guess at the actual intent of the spell. It looks to me to be a spell designed to allow people to gather powerful aid in combat and to summon helpers. I seriously doubt that the intent of the spell was to allow someone to mimic aother 9th level spell for pennies on the dollar.

Now, say there is a creature who is Lawful Good. The epitomy of lawful good in fact, and you are a follower of a lawful good god, one that this creature is a direct servent to. You gate it in, say that you want these wishes for the inherant bonuses in order to serve your diety better and be a stronger force for law and good in this plane. Now, why would it not capitulate? If you let it do this then you are granting the wishes which was the complaint. This gets around your evil guy twisting, or someone with cross motives. He may even 'want' to do it since at this level you may be a favorite of this god anyway. Now he has +5 inherant to all of his stats for an incredibly reduced cost.

Perhaps this powerful creature knows that power which isn't earned often leads to corruption and thus doesn't want to risk it? And although he may not want to twist the wish, he also would't want to grant it. At the very least he ould revoke the granted bonuses once he returned home.

So is there a problem? with the efreet? with this guy? elsewhere? If you dont believe that the character should get the wishes then neither case should work, if you believe the second should work then there has to be a way to make the first work as well. Pick one, either they both 'could' work or neither could.

Nope, there's no problem at all, because in a world where the inhabitants are more than just stats Gate is a tool, not a bonus farm. I never said that th character shouldn't get the wishes. In the case of the efreet he would most definitely get the wishes, he just might not like them. With the powerful LG creature he would get the wishes (because the creature can't disobey and (we're assuming) doesn't want to punish) but he might not keep them.

 

[James McMurray]

But doesn't Gate say you "control" the creature? The Gated creature shouldn't just be following the letter of your commands, it should be doing what you want it to do. Only if commands have been unclear, and there's multiple ways for the creature to acomplish the goals, should the creature even have any choice but to do exactly what the caster wants.

Of course, I agree the Solar will get its revenge for being cruelly used . . .

It says you control. It doesn't say that you control the creature and that it is happy to be of service and cannot hurt you if you give it a chance.

 

[Nail]

....aaaanyway: so how 'bout them problem spells, eh?

 

[James McMurray]

We have been mentioning other problem spells in our posts. There's nothing wrong with having two concurrent discussions in a single thread.