Lizardfolk = ECL 4?!?!

[reapersaurus]

NOW I'm confused!
Are you saying that someone would play an ogre and NOT be the best combat-character in the group?

The ogre is going to be persecuted everywhere he goes, and has almost NO skills.
I don't understand this comparison to a rogue character that isn't supposed to be dominant in combat.

A rogue will dominate out of combat due to his insane # of skills.
The ogre's got almost nothing but his size and his strength, and you're saying that the player of the ogre shouldn't expect his ogre PC to shine in combat when compared to other characters of his level?

HUH?!?

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I think the biggest problem will be making sure the person playing the ogre knows his limitations and doesn't expect that he will be such a front-line fighter....

Certainly. As I have stated several times before. To take the +8 ECL and move it down to fit your game would not be a major harm. To be stuck as DM with a +6 ECL that is going to hurt your game and be forced to tell a player, "Sorry, I am going to give you less than the official rules state.", would really suck.

If a player wants to play the best front line fighter in the party, they should play a human or half-orc or dwarf. As someone else said, if ogres made the best fighters, every party would have an ogre.

If a player wants to play an ogre simply to abuse the system by getting a better character than the core rules allow, I have no sympathy. And if he is simply equal to a human fighter in combat and then gets reach and great stength and the coolness of being the biggest ogre in the region, then he will be better.

If someone came to me with a concept for a STR 18 ogre wizard, I would not consider for one momment holding them to a +8 ECL.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

NOW I'm confused!
Are you saying that someone would play an ogre and NOT be the best combat-character in the group?

The ogre is going to be persecuted everywhere he goes, and has almost NO skills.
I don't understand this comparison to a rogue character that isn't supposed to be dominant in combat.

A rogue will dominate out of combat due to his insane # of skills.
The ogre's got almost nothing but his size and his strength, and you're saying that the player of the ogre shouldn't expect his ogre PC to shine in combat when compared to other characters of his level?

HUH?!?

I don't understand why you say "Now". This is exactly what I have been saying from the beginning. Go back and read what I wrote.

 

[Archer]

Hmm, in my test combats with a Fig 6 vs Ogre 1, the fighter was crushed every time. In fact, sometimes he never even got a hit in. In melee only combat, the only way the fighter has a chance is if he has spring attack (which I denied the fighter). I would expect the results to be the same with a disciple of kord or a 9th level fighter as long as they didn't have spring attack which is the achilles heel of the ogre.

I gave the Ogre large and in charge, exo weap- duom, and combat reflexes. I gave both characters all 18's for base stats. Fighter took bastard sword, focus, spec, dwarf's toughness, dodge, improved initiative, power attack and power lunge.

The ogre always moves back to 20' from the fighter and attacks unless the fighter got adjacent, then the ogre withdraws to 25' and doesn't attack that round. The fighter gets cut to ribbons every time he advances as he leaves a threated square 3x before he can attack and if he gets hit on either of the first two then he loses his attack for the round and has to start over from the beginning next round. The human averaged 1 attack for every 12 the ogre made. Too bad, so sad for the human.

 

[Marshall]

If a player wants to play the best front line fighter in the party, they should play a human or half-orc or dwarf. As someone else said, if ogres made the best fighters, every party would have an ogre.

What are you talking about?

I'm not asking for Ogres to make the best fighter. But when you set the ECL, It should make the Ogre equal to the party level.

An Ogre FTR should Equal a Human/Dwarf/Half-Orc FTR including reach and outstanding STR.

Since its been ably demonstrated several times over that an Ogre FTR/BRB whatever at +8 ECL is seriously underpowered compared to an equal level core race. What do we have? +8 ECL is way too high.

Reaper : Youre dead on.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I have already addressed this. Go back and read it.

The ogre can be less good at combat than the fighter and still be equal to the fighter in character value. If he is as good as the fighter at combat he will be BETTER than the fighter in character value.

Not to mention that a slight bias should go to the core races. Ohterwise, why ever play a human. (recalling that pure roleplaying is not a balance factor)

 

[Marshall]

I gave the Ogre large and in charge, exo weap- duom, and combat reflexes. I gave both characters all 18's for base stats. Fighter took bastard sword, focus, spec, dwarf's toughness, dodge, improved initiative, power attack and power lunge.

The ogre always moves back to 20' from the fighter and attacks unless the fighter got adjacent, then the ogre withdraws to 25' and doesn't attack that round. The fighter gets cut to ribbons every time he advances as he leaves a threated square 3x before he can attack and if he gets hit on either of the first two then he loses his attack for the round and has to start over from the beginning next round. The human averaged 1 attack for every 12 the ogre made. Too bad, so sad for the human.

Oh man where to start...

1.) Ogre with reach weapon is 15' not 20'
2.) FTR doesnt even move "Ready Action : When he attacks, I sunder his weapon"
3.) I dont care how many AoOs you have, you never get more than one AoO against a single opponent per round. Especially for a single action(move).
4.) All 18s maximizes the Ogres racial benefits while negating(minimizing) his penalties
5.) II?, Dwarfs Toughness?, So the ogre took the feats that maxed his abilities and the fighter wasted his?
6.) So far, all the arguments for the ogre are based on 'Large and in Charge'. Isnt that more a comment on the feat, then the race? I mean the same could be said for half-dragon or any other large race.

 

[Marshall]

I have already addressed this. Go back and read it.

The ogre can be less good at combat than the fighter and still be equal to the fighter in character value. If he is as good as the fighter at combat he will be BETTER than the fighter in character value.

Not to mention that a slight bias should go to the core races. Ohterwise, why ever play a human. (recalling that pure roleplaying is not a balance factor)

Like what? Just what can an Ogre do outside of combat? He has no skills, all his social/mental based stuff is down the tubes with the stat penalties, hes LARGE, nothing fits.

If I wanted to play a pack-mule, I'd darn well play a pack mule

 

[Wolfspider]

If I wanted to play a pack-mule, I'd darn well play a pack mule

And you can! A mule is ECL 4.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

I have already addressed this. Go back and read it.

The ogre can be less good at combat than the fighter and still be equal to the fighter in character value. If he is as good as the fighter at combat he will be BETTER than the fighter in character value.

Not to mention that a slight bias should go to the core races. Ohterwise, why ever play a human. (recalling that pure roleplaying is not a balance factor)

1) "Character Value" = roleplaying as balancing factor. The ogre's rules mechanical value as a Strongman (door opening, carrying capacity) are counterbalanced by his lack of skills (even compared to a fighter) and the problems associated with being a large creature (equipment costs, etc...).

2) Why ever play a human? For the extra skill point at each level. For the extra feat. For the ability to choose your preferred class, which can be crucial for multiclassing. For the ability to have 9 feats as a Fighter 9 (including specialization) instead of 2 feats as an Ogre Fighter 1. For the ability to have a BAB of +9, instead of a +3. Last but not least, for the ability to not be genetically predisposed towards being as smart and charming as a rock.