Lizardfolk = ECL 4?!?!

[bret]

I feel a sliding scale is need to really do the half-dragon right. And that is not worth the effort. Just leave them out or only allow them in really high level games

An automatic XP penalty might be another way to handle it. Easier to track than a sliding scale, yet delays their advancement compared to other players.

 

[Wolfspider]

An automatic XP penalty might be another way to handle it.

Perhaps, although it seems like the 3rd edition team wants to stay away from anything that smacks too much of 2nd edition.

 

[HeavyG]

However, I hope that the Tooth and Claw book allows for the option of dropping extra hit dice in order to lower the ECL. I think that would be fair, especially if a player doesn't want to have to wait until everyone else is 9th level to play an ogre character. An ECL of 4 is about right for a zero hit dice Ogre (maybe a very young specimen of the race).

I like that idea.

I might require a character to ba at least xth level, though. Like a werewolf or werebear. A 1st level ogre fighter would be kinda ridiculous when all ogres in the world run around with 4d8 hit dice.

EDIT: Whoah! Avatars and sigs!

Indeed. Takeoff all sigs !

 

[reapersaurus]

reapersaurus: Spells take time to cast and if they can be cast on the ogre as well, it isn't a fair comparison. Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment would be cast for the ogre, he doesn't have to cast it himself. Divine Favor takes a round to cast during which the ogre could have just charged in and after one combat its gone.

Contenders of Kord only get that strength for 1 round unless they are 10th level, when they get a 1.5xlevel bonus to strength for 1d4+1 rounds. Again, limited uses per day.

So you are conveniently not including the spells the character has because the ogre will just get them cast on him anyway...
from some fairy cleric, i presume?

Sorry.
That's not an appropriate thing to do when comparing characters.

And Divine Favor is the only spell I mentioned that doesn't have a ridiculously long duration, so you can assume that all the others will be up.

And YES, the Contender gets the bonus for 1d4+1 rounds. It's called the Surge of Strength ability, and they get it at MCoK level 3.

So you refuted nothing.
Do you care to explain again how the Contender would not kick the ogre up and down the court?
Or will you just admit that there are combos that will be better even at melee than this monstrous ogre?
And this Contender can actually GO INTO a city and get a drink or even talk to people without the populace running in fear of their lives.

P.S. Heavy G: good one.
I think it'd be "take off every sig!", if you're parodying the zerowing phenomenon.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

What are you arguing for, Reaper?

That the MCoK is overpowered? If you are, then I tend to agree with you.

But then this class as written wouldn't be allowed in my games so that's not a problem for me.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

What are you arguing for, Reaper?

That the MCoK is overpowered? If you are, then I tend to agree with you.

But then this class as written wouldn't be allowed in my games so that's not a problem for me.

That was exactly the conclusion I was reaching as well.

 

[HeavyG]

I think it'd be "take off every sig!", if you're parodying the zerowing phenomenon.

Even better !

 

[reapersaurus]

What are you arguing for, Reaper?

That the MCoK is overpowered? If you are, then I tend to agree with you.

But then this class as written wouldn't be allowed in my games so that's not a problem for me.

Here's my exact point:

You are saying that the Ogre is overpowered to be played as a PC.
Mainly for its MELEE capabilities.
You, and others, have repeatedly stated that IF an ogre is allowed in at less than +8 ECL, it will dominate combat and overshadow the core-race PC's so much that they'll want to pack their bags and go home (my paraphrasing).

I show an example of a combo that will eclipse this Ogre convincingly in MELEE, and you don't retract or re-state your position.

If I bring up other examples that are more powerful in combat than the ogre (which I won't), than will you just proclaim THEM as "overpowered", as well?
Strike THEM from your games, also?

Face it: 3E is a powerful game, that have PC's that can do wondrous things.
Why stop players from having fun?
It sure beats having the mage in the party just throw down an insanely-high DC spell and insta-kill the opponent.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

1- MCoK is not a core class. The fact that it tends to show up most often in smackdown discussion indicate it should be toned down.

"Balanced" is the adjective I prefer to keep in mind when thinking of 3e. Not "Powerful".

2- My main point is that the ogre is not underpowered as ECL 8. He'll still make his presence felt, will still manage to hit hard and everybody will respect the damage he can deal.

I am going to use a friendly 3rd level Ogre NPC at ECL 8 in my next session (My PCs are level 11). It happens to make sense for the current storyline and will allow me to see in practice.

 

[Wolfspider]

I am going to use a friendly 3rd level Ogre NPC at ECL 8 in my next session (My PCs are level 11). It happens to make sense for the current storyline and will allow me to see in practice.

Let us know how the ogre fares....