Lizardfolk = ECL 4?!?!

[Hypersmurf]

For your information, an Ogre could become a mighty contender of Kord on his 2nd or 3rd PC level. Just make sure he isn't too stupid.

I have no idea what the prerequisites for a MCoK are, sorry.

-Hyp.

 

[Michael Tree]

The power of the mighty contender prestige class is very dependent on cleric/MC level. (It essentially allows a cleric to use the Strength domain power several times a day, each lasting several 1d4+1 rounds.) As a result, a cleric/mighty condender or fighter/cleric/mighty contender would gain a much greater benefit from it than an ogre would. (When you consider such a character will also become able to cast righteous might, giving him more Strength and the ogre's advantage of being Large, the MC looks even better).

 

[Michael Tree]

I still assert that the wizard example was entirely meaningless. The only reason the wizard was superior was because of a spell.
You say it is not about the potency of spells, when in fact it 100% about the potency of spells.

The hold monster spell will competely negate all of the advantages of both the fighter and barbarian classes. Does that mean the classes are not worth it?

Comparing hold monster to my polymorph self example is comparing apples to oranges. The former is an offensive spell, and is very difficult to compare to melee fighting capacity - no one would disagree that wizards and fighters both have something to contribute to a party.

No spell lets a wizard or cleric become better at another class at that class's speciality. No spell lets a wizard fight better than a fighter or barbarian (much lower BAB, hit points, and feats/rage), no spell lets a wizard ambush or infiltrate better than a rogue, and no spell lets a wizard support better than a cleric or bard. However, a single spell lets a 9th level wizard completely outclass the ogre in the example above. The wiz has a higher BAB, more hit points, more feats, and virtually the same strength.

Worse yet, polymorph other can be cast on others, including dedicated fighters and barbarians, who would gain most of the Ogre's advantages in addition to their own class abilities.

Magic must be considered when talking about game balance. Ignoring spells and magic items when talking about game balance is folly, as spells and magic will affect normal gameplay.

As to roleplaying factors, as I stated already, I am not talking about the simple fun of playing the game, which, of course, should in no way be a balancing factor. I am talking about an alternative for roleplaying toward solving a problem or defeating an enemy that would not be available to normal characters. If it contributes to the character concept being directly able to achieve a goal, it should certainly be a balancing factor.

The problem with this is that it is highly DM dependant. Some DMs would consider this, and others would not. Note that many "roleplaying disadvantages" also fit into your category of things that affect being directly able to achieve a goal. Being a big monster makes people less likely to trust or help you, making diplomatic solutions less viable. Being large also renders disguises pointless, and could scare smaller people even when you don't want to. However, because these sorts of things are entirely dependant on the DM, none of them should be considered to be balancing factors.

If you want to claim that being large, having reach and having vastly greater STR than the other characters is summed up as being better at opening doors, then I stand my claim of short-sightedness.

I guess I seriously overstated my claim before. I'm not denying that an ogre is powerful, I just don't think it's the equivalent of an 8th level character when all the factors, magical as well as mundane, are considered.

 

[Michael Tree]

About the ogre, skill points can be had through magic and very cheaply I might add. You can buy hps but they are more expensive and you can get compensation for low saves at even more expense. You can't take Large and in Charge unless you are naturally large. Polymorph other will always leave you with -2 to everything from disorientation.

If you're referring to headbands of intellect, yes those gan give more skill points in the long run, but anyone can use them, barbarian 9 and ogre barbarian 1 alike. The same goes for Con boosting items, and saving throw boosting items.
All of these give bonuses above the baseline, but do not affect the baseline itself. However, polymorph and shapechange simply change the baseline, not add to it. An ogre doesn't gain much from polymorphing, but a human gains a great deal, including most of the advantages that the ogre paid 4 levels of nothing and 4 levels of bad hit dice for.

Large and in charge means you can't advance against a creature with reach if it hits you. Combat reflexes with 20 ft reach means 3 attacks to hit and stop someone charging up to your AoO limit. Knockdown means not only are you stopped, you are prone. Imp shield bash mean even if you make it up to the ogre everyone next to you when you are bashed gets an AoO and the ogre can move back for another series of AoO. Boots of striding and springing and a ready action mean a spell caster can't cast spells. +8 on trip checks is near automatic success in opposed tests. When the ogre is ECL 15, he has 8 feats which lets him do all of the above. (My human character will have all the above at level 18 but he's min/maxed too)

Large and in charge is indeed a nice feat. However, an ogre has a -2 penalty to Dex, so it's unlikely that even an ogre with Combat Reflexes will have more than 2 or 3 AoO's, especially if he wants to have a good Str and enough Con to not be a physical gimp. Besides, feats like this is why they invented reach weapons and tumbling.

Knockdown, Improved shield bash, tripping, and bull rushing are also very good, but a character under the effects of polymorph or righteous might gains the same benefits.

Also note that, despite their strength, ogres don't shine at grappling. They get a +4 bonus and a good strength bonus, but because it is based on BAB, their bonuses are worse than a comperable human or half-orc barbarian or fighter.

 

[reapersaurus]

Is 30 Str, 5' Reach, and a Large weapon vs 28 Str, 10' Reach, and a Huge weapon really a "wipe the floor" situation?

Granted, I don't know what else the Contender has going for it. But it looked like you were basing your point on the difference in Strength...?

If you're going to want to compare the ogre in melee vs. a Mighty Contender, you have to deal with the Contender's cleric levels (which the ogre can't have because the ECL).

The Contender is one level away from casting 4th level cleric spells.
So he easily would have MANY more HP than the ogre (starts out way higher, plus an Endurance spell, plus if he rages), he'll have better to hit (plus a Divine Favor spell), he'll do more damage (more STR plus Magic Weapon, soon Greater Magic Weapon), he's got higher AC (Magic Vestment), he can heal himself a boatload of damage, etc.
Plus he's got all those other spells to use (maybe Spikes on his greatclub, or something)

I see that as a "wipe the floor situation", myself.
I don't think reach is going to save the ogre.

So I'd go back to stating that "a non-core PrC shouldn't be used in these comparisons" if I were you. LOL

 

[green slime]

When I started reading this thread, I was wondering how in the nether regions they could have set the ECLs for the monster races so high.

The more I read, the more convinced I am that the ECLs that have been mentioned here, (not possessing the latest Dragon magazine) are about right, with the exception of that nasty Half-dragon template.

Those game designers have to accomodate those players who min/max to the extreme. There will not be a huge supply of Ogre Wizards or Rogues at any gaming table.

The monstrous races cannot be the default choice for a certain class. If you compare the core races, you can create viable Fighters from any of the races. But introduce an ECL 4 or 5 Ogre and every damn mid-level or higher adventuring party will have an Ogre fighter/barbarian.

 

[Archer]

Michael Tree: I was referring to the ubiquitous +10 to a skill item for 2,000 gcs or +20 for 8,000. For most skills it doesn't really matter if you have +20 or +30 against untrained, unequiped folk.

reapersaurus: Spells take time to cast and if they can be cast on the ogre as well, it isn't a fair comparison. Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment would be cast for the ogre, he doesn't have to cast it himself. Divine Favor takes a round to cast during which the ogre could have just charged in and after one combat its gone.

Contenders of Kord only get that strength for 1 round unless they are 10th level, when they get a 1.5xlevel bonus to strength for 1d4+1 rounds. Again, limited uses per day.

ECL isn't refering to how good someone is in a single combat, that's what CR is for. ECL is how strong someone is with the support of 3 other party members, magic equipment, and over the course of many encounters in a single day. In a 30 round combat everyone but the ogre (and fighters) would have expended their class abilities.

In obsessing over the ogre, we missed some that might even have an ECL that is too low. Look at the formian warrior. For ECL 10 you get 4 natural atttacks, a poison stinger, SR18 on top of insane immunities/resistances (everything but acid), +6 str, +6 dex, +4 con, +2 wis, +5 natural armor and 4d8 HD with better save, skill and BAB advancment than any class in the game plus a 40 move. This puts the feeble lizardman to shame at ECL 4.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Michael,

OK. I still think you are missing my point about the polymorph. Afterall, a fighter poymorphed into a green hag would be even more dangerous. Any character can be under the effect of any number of spells, not just the casting wizard. So it is NOT a good balancing factor because in the end a million different scenarios could be described and they all cancel out. Comparing a wizard under the effect of a certain spell to a straight ogre is not meaningful. Chaneg the ogre to a human fighter and it is still not meaningful.

Anyway, we have made our points. And perhaps we are closer than we are letting on (debate is fun after all)

My central claim is that to err low on the ECLs would screw the players who just want to play a human or an elf.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

When I started reading this thread, I was wondering how in the nether regions they could have set the ECLs for the monster races so high.

The more I read, the more convinced I am that the ECLs that have been mentioned here, (not possessing the latest Dragon magazine) are about right, with the exception of that nasty Half-dragon template.

Those game designers have to accomodate those players who min/max to the extreme. There will not be a huge supply of Ogre Wizards or Rogues at any gaming table.

The monstrous races cannot be the default choice for a certain class. If you compare the core races, you can create viable Fighters from any of the races. But introduce an ECL 4 or 5 Ogre and every damn mid-level or higher adventuring party will have an Ogre fighter/barbarian.

I agree with you completely.

Particularlly regarding the half dragon. I feel a sliding scale is need to really do the half-dragon right. And that is not worth the effort. Just leave them out or only allow them in really high level games

 

[Wolfspider]

I, too, am beginning to think that the ECLs are about right (if one or two above what they should be to avoid min-maxing). However, I hope that the Tooth and Claw book allows for the option of dropping extra hit dice in order to lower the ECL. I think that would be fair, especially if a player doesn't want to have to wait until everyone else is 9th level to play an ogre character. An ECL of 4 is about right for a zero hit dice Ogre (maybe a very young specimen of the race). Of course, then you'll have a 5th level character with under twenty hit points--equal to a wizard or sorcerer, I guess, so not that bad.

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