LMoP [ooc]

[MENTION=6746242]mips42[/MENTION], Tides of Chaos was supposed to "force" you to roll twice on any skill check you decide roll (if any) - mostly to get goblins fired up :)

I have a dream was targeted at americans, I believe everyone recognizes L.Kings speech modification :)

Luckily most or all of the PCs don't understand goblin - it would be very bad if they turned on me in the middle of the speech ;)


Finally: 2 sorcerer points to retrieve 1st level slot, just in case...I'd like a better chance to trigger wild surge, maybe just not on the first level :p


I will give everyone a chance to (re)act before continuing "talky human" mode
 

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In the IC thread, Ivan gets to act next, then Eddicus.

Since the goblins didn't attack the party (yet), Eddicus' readied action to throw a dart did not get triggered last round. Now that Eddicus has a new full action coming up, he'll rethink what to do then.
 

I believe only Vottr dropped one permanently. Others had more or less non-lethal damage (with side dish of lethal) and should recover...
 

Thanks for the clarification.
I see in the PHB (Chapter 9, under the heading "Knocking a Creature Out") the following:
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than dealing a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out.

Maybe that's what is going on. (I'm still learning 5E.)
 

Under 5e rules you can choose to deal non-lethal damage. There is no penalty for doing so.

Personally I find it quite ridiculous. How can a character with a strength of 20 deal non-lethal damage with a great sword?! Hit them with the side? Then you should have an attack penalty for trying to override a lifetime of training. Or aerodynamic effects. Or not get your strength bonus to "damage". Same with spells... A non-lethal magic missile looks like a paintball gun?! Pfft...
 

I don't think being hit by a flat side of the sword, especially two handed one (i.e. heavy), should be any less lethal...after all, maces and clubs are quite lethal too. This is more a matter of skill, hitting with less force, but targeted at head (to knock out), legs (to knock down) or arms/weapons (to disable/disarm).

As for spells, I agree, fireball should never be non-lethal (although I can imagine it as a high pressure heatwave (stun grenade) )...luckily, physics and D&D are in a loose relationship :)
 

I think the flat side of a great sword would be quite lethal too... Hitting the head though - that's probably quite challenging against an opponent fighting for their life. As represented by the chance of rolling a 20.

If I had the opportunity to re-write the rule on subdual I would have up to 25% of total damage be knockout damage (at attacker's discretion). Even if you knock someone out when you're using weapons, it's going to leave them a bloody mess. And it should never be risk free...

But I'm just a player and DM, unfortunately. :-/
 

Personally I find it quite ridiculous. How can a character with a strength of 20 deal non-lethal damage with a great sword?! Hit them with the side? Then you should have an attack penalty for trying to override a lifetime of training. Or aerodynamic effects. Or not get your strength bonus to "damage". Same with spells... A non-lethal magic missile looks like a paintball gun?! Pfft...
I think you’re missing what HP actually represent. Then you might realize that there is no real difference between lethal and non-lethal damage in 5th edition.

Basic Rules 5e said:
Hit Points:

Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck. Creatures with more hit points are more difficult to kill. Those with fewer hit points are more fragile. A creature’s current hit points (usually just called hit points) can be any number from the creature’s hit point maximum down to 0. This number changes frequently as a creature takes damage or receives healing.

Whenever a creature takes damage, that damage is subtracted from its hit points. The loss of hit points has no effect on a creature’s capabilities until the creature drops to 0 hit points.
When you actually think about this, all HP damage is really non-lethal since you technically are not really wounded. HP are not health points nor does their reduction reflect how wounded a character is.

Realistically, you cannot be 100% combat capable if you are injured. Just imagine how only a sprained wrist affects performance. Try running normally with a 3 inch gash in your leg. Therefore even at 1HP remaining a character cannot be seriously wounded according to the mechanics. They can only have minor, superficial wounds and bruises that can realistically be ignored.

So any discussion that a sword is doing massive damage before the foe reaches 0HP is already inaccurate. ;)

Look at it this way. Round 1 your hulking fighter hit the orc with a greatsword for 12 dmg out of 13HP. The orc has 1HP remaining but is still 100% combat effective. The sword did NOT slice open his flesh and nearly kill him. His armor probably absorbed most of the blow, leaving him bruised and sucking in breath. Then your Halfling whirls a sling bullet for 2 damage. That hit takes the orc in face and leaves him incapacitated or dying. Or maybe it was our hulking fighter again with the greatsword for 10+ damage. The player has the option to turn the final blow to a smash of a hilt upside the head for knock-out instead of decapitation.
 

@perinmiller I love a good debate on this sort of thing! :-)

I understand that 1 HP = as alive and kicking as 100 HP. Hit points have to be an abstraction though, as otherwise we would get bogged down in ridiculous details.

A fireball should leave lingering burns. Being continually dropped to <10% of your maximum HP should result in the loss of digits or a limb after awhile. But this all gets glossed over for heroic gameplay, and I'm glad for it. I play "real life" every day and it's not all that awesome to fight the mortgage monster day in and day out...

For the sake of argument, assume I (or you) has been trained with weapons every hour that you have actually spent in a classroom. If I (or you) tried to knock someone out in a real fight, there's a chance misfortune could kill them instead. The critical bits for a KO, like the head, are also critical bits for life. They will be well defended.

Your (my) opponent could duck into a strike that was only meant to batter them, and get a knick across the throat. In any case, having (embarrassingly) been in several actual punch ups, people are bruised and really sore afterwards. A great sword to the side of the head could cut my ear off as well as leave permanent brain damage.

To simply translate damage from lethal weapons swung in anger to "non-lethal" damage is simplistic. But so are HP, and we accept that for the sake of heroic action.

5e is about streamlined combat. So, maybe resistance to non-lethal damage is appropriate? :-)
 

maybe resistance to non-lethal damage is appropriate? :-)
I think you are confusing 5e rules with previous editions.

There is no such thing as non-lethal damage in 5e.
[sblock=Damage Types from the 5e Rules]Different attacks, damaging spells, and other harmful effects deal different types of damage. Damage types have no rules of their own, but other rules, such as damage resistance, rely on the types. The damage types follow, with examples to help a DM assign a damage type to a new effect.
Acid. The corrosive spray of a black dragon’s breath and the dissolving enzymes secreted by a black pudding deal acid damage.
Bludgeoning. Blunt force attacks—hammers, falling, constriction, and the like—deal bludgeoning damage.
Cold. The infernal chill radiating from an ice devil’s spear and the frigid blast of a white dragon’s breath deal cold damage.
Fire. Red dragons breathe fire, and many spells conjure flames to deal fire damage.
Force. Force is pure magical energy focused into a damaging form. Most effects that deal force damage are spells, including magic missile and spiritual weapon.
Lightning. A lightning bolt spell and a blue dragon’s breath deal lightning damage.
Necrotic. Necrotic damage, dealt by certain undead and some spells, withers matter and even the soul.
Piercing. Puncturing and impaling attacks, including spears and monsters’ bites, deal piercing damage.
Poison. Venomous stings and the toxic gas of a green dragon’s breath deal poison damage.
Psychic. Mental abilities such as a mind flayer’s psionic blast deal psychic damage.
Radiant. Radiant damage, dealt by a cleric’s flame strike spell or an angel’s smiting weapon, sears the flesh like fire and overloads the spirit with power.
Slashing. Swords, axes, and monsters’ claws deal slashing damage.
Thunder. A concussive burst of sound, such as the effect of the thunderwave spell, deals thunder damage.[/sblock]
I think the game designers took out non-lethal because they are making damage more abstract to match HP and damage is lethal until the foe is reduced to 0HP. Just because you reduce someone’s HP, doesn’t actually mean they took any real damage. For example, the fireball’s flames singed the target’s hair and some exposed skin, scaring the crap out of him (translation: took 25 of 30 HP).

In previous editions, common thinking is that Damage = Wounding. But HP were never about how many wounds you could take then either. Spells like Cure Serious Wounds further supported that way of thinking.

I like that 5e really clarified this concept compared to other editions, yet they did not actually change anything much. I never really liked the idea of NL damage when Lethal Damage had no real affect either. Trying to write combat results at higher levels was making no real sense until I adopted the same thinking as they describe for 5e.

Look at these excerpts from the 5e rules:

Describing the Effects of Damage
Dungeon Masters describe hit point loss in different ways. When your current hit point total is half or more of your hit point maximum, you typically show no signs of injury. When you drop below half your hit point maximum, you show signs of wear, such as cuts and bruises. An attack that reduces you to 0 hit points strikes you directly, leaving a bleeding injury or other trauma, or it simply knocks you unconscious.

Dropping to 0 Hit Points
When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious, as explained in the following sections.

Instant Death
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum. For example, a cleric with a maximum of 12 hit points currently has 6 hit points. If she takes 18 damage from an attack, she is reduced to 0 hit points, but 12 damage remains. Because the remaining damage equals her hit point maximum, the cleric dies.

Falling Unconscious
If damage reduces you to 0 hit points and fails to kill you, you fall unconscious. This unconsciousness ends if you regain any hit points.​

When you look at this, what is the mechanical difference really between unconscious due to injury versus just being knocked out? None, so why would you need a roll to check if you succeed instead of letting the player decide?

This leads me to another issue…

Referencing reality to nit-pick at rules is backwards for me. That is because we are playing a role-playing game, not a mechanics heavy roll-playing game. All the rules for combat are doing is structuring things to allow the participants to tell the story with some randomness applied to the outcomes. We could simplify things to coin flips and still accomplish the same thing from a role-playing perspective. Flip a coin to see if you hit. Flip again to see if you killed. Then write your results as creatively as you want that makes realistic sense.

Instead of trying to make the game mechanics fit reality, I just use them to help realistically write the results of actions in the story. The game mechanics purpose is to allow adjudication for the actions I want my character to do. If I want my highly trained fighter to simply knock out his opponent with the hilt of his sword instead of breaking his skull, then it should happen.
 

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