Logic of being atheist in a default D&D campaign.

[Janx]

I certainly don't want this topic to degenerate into any kind of real world religious/political discussion or anything. I'm just trying to to make sense out of a game about magic and dragons!

Thanks for everyone who has given their thoughts on the matter. What still doesn't make any sense to me, would be the the 'casual believer' or the ones who only pay lip service to the gods. Say have a large village or town where most people worship Pelor and the Clerics help see to everyone's needs. I mean, wouldn't everyone eventually genuinely worship or be a cleric of Pelor until the goverrnment would basically be a Theocracy? Why aren't all governments Theocracies? I guess I'm looking for in game reasons. How would a couple of happy go lucky rogues justify raiding the temple of Paladine so they might have a night out on the town with their spoils (assuming they don't have kind religious thinking behind it whatsoever)?

If you watch The Tudors, I'm not so sure the government wasn't a Theocracy, from a certain standpoint. religion and government were entwined, and if nothing else, religious faults were used for political leverage.

As for your rogues, I'd assume they are people who haven't thought deeply on religion and their actions. Much like kids who just do things impulsively, without thinking through the consequences. As such, they go to church every churchday, and don't think of themselves as Asmodius's servants, but they don't think of their actions in relation to the harm they are causing.

 

[S_Dalsgaard]

This reminds me of the missionary in the movie Erik the Viking. Because he didn't believe in the Norse gods (and therefore magic), every time something magical happened, he simply couldn't see it or found some mundane explanation for it

 

[Vigilance]

I've had magic-users who rolled their eyes at clerics anytime they mentioned their god and said "it's just magic, I can use magic too".

 

[Umbran]

this chain of logic always felt like arguing semantics over the meaning of the word "god"

In matters of faith, isn't the meaning of the word "god" pretty much all-important?

I should think that for the sake of playing in a game of "Let's Pretend Odin and Thor are Real" that we could just take it at that and play are darned characters who know Odin and Thor are real.

But the game isn't "let's pretend Odin and Thor are real". The game is D&D. Whether Odin and Thor are real is rather up in the air, depending on the GM.

And it isn't like players wanting to play against type are rare. What, is it too hard for a GM to figure out how non-believers fit into a world?

 

[Umbran]

Say have a large village or town where most people worship Pelor and the Clerics help see to everyone's needs.

Well, this depends upon the demographics of the world, and the rule set. Maybe there are enough clerics to really take care of everyone, and maybe there aren't.

Take 5e. Strictly speaking, everyone regains all hit points over a long rest. Why do I need a cleric for day-to-day stuff? If I can survive trauma long enough to get a long rest, then the cleric is mostly superfluous. And it isn't like clerics are the only ones who can cure things...

I mean, wouldn't everyone eventually genuinely worship or be a cleric of Pelor until the goverrnment would basically be a Theocracy?

Well, in that world, are the clerics of Pelor the *only* people who can heal? If not, then the people have choices, and it isn't a done-deal for Pelor. Do the people actually need the clerics all that frequently - do mundane skills handle most of their needs?

 

[neonagash]

I can see 2 takes on it.

1. You believe the gods either dont exist or arent gods as has been mentioned.

2. You do believe the gods are real but in a pantheistic society the character simply hasnt found the one patron god that really speaks to them yet. So even though he knows the gods are real the character doesnt worship any of them and could thus be considered an Athiest.

 

[Janx]

In matters of faith, isn't the meaning of the word "god" pretty much all-important?

only to people who like arguing semantics.

Make a list of the traits that describe Loki, Odin and Thor.

Show that list to an average NPC and they'll say "that sounds like a god to me"

Because it's only the philosophical muckety mucks who give this whole thing more thought about who is or isn't a god.

King Bob is king because every body says so and nobody successfully deposes him, and even then, he WAS the King. Odin is a god for the same reason.

Even if a PC gets powerful and kills Odin, that doesn't disprove Odin wasn't a God all those centuries. It simply means the PC has gained the same power as a god (and may even become considered a god).

Even today, we don't go around correcting people that "Odin wasn't a god" even if we say he wasn't real. That's part of the power/respect/awe a god has by nature of being a god.

But the game isn't "let's pretend Odin and Thor are real". The game is D&D. Whether Odin and Thor are real is rather up in the air, depending on the GM.

And it isn't like players wanting to play against type are rare. What, is it too hard for a GM to figure out how non-believers fit into a world?

For a generic D&D game as the OP said, it isn't up in the air, it is quite defined. Odin is a god and he is real in this campaign.

it is the player who is refusing to engage with that state of affairs. He is not "playing against type" he is "refusing to play" and most likely bringing his real world religion in (or lack thereof) in lieu of portraying a character who actually lives there.

It's also possible the player just doesn't care about religion stuff in general, but those types are likely to not engage with religion at all in a game. For those type of players, this whole thread is "meh" and the OP should figure out if he's fretting over players who just don't care for the subject.

 

[steeldragons]

Well, this depends on the game world. In the ones with Odin actually walking around, there's not a lot you can do to justify atheism other than the aforementioned "they exist but aren't gods" attitude.

In other more...subtle [?] worlds where the gods exist, their clerics receive magic from them, etc etc...but the gods, themselves, are not physically manifesting in all their godly glory in front of mortals, atheism is/would be a matter of faith -or lack thereof.

To the atheist, the clerics and those faithful to the gods are deluded, if not demented. They have magic. Sure. So does his pal the mage..and [in 5e] the bard, the paladin, the ranger, the warlock, practically every friggin body on the planet can "do magic!" Big whoop. That doesn't "prove" anything about the so-called "gods' existence."

To the clerics, the atheist is [well, literally] apostate and to be viewed with anything from pitiable to heretical to, well, a madman or moron in the face of what the faithful consider "overwhelming evidence" of their magical power.

So, in those worlds, being an atheist is really not difficult at all. Deity visit you in a dream? You ate some bad cheese. Think you see an angel when you are getting healed -by the charitable good-natured cleric in the group- from a serious wound? Just as convincing as a dream. Or, sure angels are real! They're just some extradimensional creature, same as any other. Nothing "divine"/metaphysical/religious about them. Temples and religions abound throughout the world, everywhere you go? So what, the druids aren't worshipping gods and they have magical powers. The mages. Even the lowly goblinoids and base savages have shamans and witchdoctors casting magic they claim comes from some dark spirits or demons. Size of a temple doesn't matter. A temple's just a building. A religion is a social construct. There is nothing you have experienced that has given you the faith that the gods exist. You want to be an atheist in a "normal D&D world", be an atheist...and the faithful of the world will treat you accordingly.

 

[Umbran]

only to people who like arguing semantics.

Or arguing faith - which, honestly, is a lot of folks. People fight wars over this stuff, you know.

Make a list of the traits that describe Loki, Odin and Thor.

Show that list to an average NPC and they'll say "that sounds like a god to me"

It will *also* sound like the archmage and her buddies from her adventuring days over in the capitol city.

Do you worship that archmage? Even though she does as much ore more visible work for the nation than Odin seems to?

When you get mortals wielding epic power, that does bring up the question - why am I worshiping this "god" again? I mean, he isn't really all that much better than the people I can actually go visit in person, if I am lucky...

That's a thing we have to hash out here - actual *faith*. Not just, "I go through the motions," but real, nigh unshiftable belief in the spiritual relevance of an entity. In a world where many such entities are competing for human attention, questions are bound to come up.

 

[was]

Various campaign settings have put forth archetypes of characters who believe that gods exist but reject them and their influences as self-centered/harmful to the best interest of humanity. It would not be hard to imagine a character who has suffered a personal tragedy of some sort rejecting the gods.