Lolth!

[Nahat Anoj]

This seems to be a good argument for allowing saving throws to end not just "save ends" effects but also "until end of next turn" effects.

Yeah, more and more I'm thinking of letting this be the case.

For those who have the MM3: Is the "god" keyword explained in the glossary?

No. Neither is "deity," actually.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Immediate Reaction, actually. So, can't do it if she's dazed or stunned.

And she's _great_ at avoiding save ends effects, but has nothing against end of next turn effects. So, if the group has a couple rounds worth of dazed or stunned until end of next turn amongst their 20 dailies and 20 encounter powers (or at-wills, with the right - hopefully fixed soon - feat), she's doomed.

Yeah, I had misread your post, but still ended up kind of answering it - you are quite right that a party with a number of end of turn nerfs can take her out of the fight for quite some time.

Though, the dominate interupt can still be useful in that - if she uses it before she's first stunned on the person stunning her, that at least prevents that PC from doing it to her again next round. Of course, it doesn't help if another PC can do it to her instead, though.

But aside from that minor, minor caveat, I agree with you.

 

[keterys]

YThough, the dominate interupt can still be useful in that - if she uses it before she's first stunned on the person stunning her, that at least prevents that PC from doing it to her again next round.

Sadly, it's a reaction, not an interrupt. So, being dazed or stunned makes it impossible to use, even once.

Hopefully the players don't know she can do that, so maybe she gets a chance to dominate the leader who gives the group +8 to hit her... before she proceeds to lose the fight I'd not be surprised if a lot of groups do lead right off with dazing or stunning attacks on solos, though.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

But the trigger is being hit by the attack. So my understanding would be that the following occurs:

1. She is hit. The immediate reaction triggers, though doesn't take effect until after the attack.

2. The attack stuns her. Normally this prevents the triggering of immediate reactions, but as it has already been triggered.

3. The attacker is dominated.

Now, if it were an immediate interupt, that would make things wonky. She's attacked, the dominate interupts the attack, meaning that the attacker is dominated prior to the attack and Lolth instead has the dominated PC attack someone else.

That said, the difference between interupts and reactions is a bit hazy, and there have been all kinds of discussions on the issue, such as what happens when an immediate interupt attack for dropping to 0 HPs kills the attacker.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

But the trigger is being hit by the attack. So my understanding would be that the following occurs:

1. She is hit. The immediate reaction triggers, though doesn't take effect until after the attack.

2. The attack stuns her. Normally this prevents the triggering of immediate reactions, but as it has already been triggered.

The immediate reaction is triggered, but hasn't been taken yet. The immediate reaction can only be taken after the triggering action has been completely resolved. If the triggering action results in bestowing the stunned condition, then Lolth can't take immediate actions and can't dominate the target.

Immediate reactions *can* interrupt movement, but that's the only interrupt effect listed.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Hmm... seems I need to brush up on my immediate actions - I guess I know what I'm reading after I get home.

But that makes sense - if a PC can shift as immediate reaction from an attack, if the attack knocks them unconscious they can't shift as they are unconscious.

So yeah, if the rules work that way, Lolth pretty much has no defence from "end of turn" conditions other than having her allies beat on the PCs that can inflict them... which is a bit sad.

Personally, the next time WotC does a rules reset, they need to think seriously on the difference between "save ends" and "end of next turn" - more and more, "end of next turn" is better, which really doesn't make any sense when "save ends" is supposed to be better (as evidenced by attacks that are "save ends" on a hit and "end of next turn" on a miss - hoping to miss just seems wrong).

 

[Runestar]

So that free-save ability still does nothing to protect her against the bane of solo encounters? Bug or feature? When I first saw that writeup, my immediate reaction was "Hah! No more stunlock!". Or at least, successfully chaining consecutive stuns/dazes is much harder than before.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, it certainly does help her against "save ends" powers... its the "until end of next turn" powers that it does nothing for.

Not having played above heroic and not really having looked that far ahead, I don't know how common daze and stun "end of next turn" are, but given that "end of next turn" is supposed to be weaker than save ends, there are presumably some. How prevelant, though, will likely depend on party and PC builds - not sure how many rounds an optimized party could keep her locked down.

Pretty damn big chink in her armour, though, if you ask me.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Hmm... seems I need to brush up on my immediate actions - I guess I know what I'm reading after I get home.

Here's the Immediate Action entry from the Compendium:

Trigger: Each immediate action—usually a power—defines its specific trigger. The one type of immediate action that every combatant can take is a readied action.

Once per Round: You can take only one immediate action per round, either an immediate interrupt or an immediate reaction. If you take an immediate action, you can’t take another one until the start of your next turn, but you can’t take an immediate action on your own turn.

Interrupt: An immediate interrupt lets you jump in when a certain trigger condition arises, acting before the trigger resolves. If an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, that action is lost. For example, an enemy makes a melee attack against you, but you use a power that lets you shift away as an immediate interrupt. If your enemy can no longer reach you, the enemy’s attack action is lost.

Reaction: An immediate reaction lets you act in response to a trigger. The triggering action, event, or condition occurs and is completely resolved before you take your reaction, except that you can interrupt a creature’s movement. If a creature triggers your immediate reaction while moving (by coming into range, for example), you take your action before the creature finishes moving but after it has moved at least 1 square.

 

[Mengu]

Note to self: When you get MM3, open up Lolth, next to "Immune poison" write down ", stun, daze".

I don't see why gods couldn't have such immunities. You could add even a few more like "attack penalty, save penalty, vulnerability". Those immunities ought to make it an interesting fight.