Long Combats are Bad

[Reynard]

I was thinking about this on my way home from my regular Pathfinder campaign last night: whether its 4E, Pathfindser or 3E, overly long (in real world session time terms) are Not Good. They eat up more temporal resources than they are worth, either delaying or pushing aside other aspects of play that are equally or more rewarding (Or "fun"), for what?

This isn't to say that every long combat is bad or a waste. Sometimes you want a big long epic combat that eats 2 to 4 hours of game time. But sometimes you want combat that moves quickly and smoothly, resolving in 15-30 minutes so the PCs can get on with the adventure at hand.

I think what newer/current editions of D&D need is a two tiered combat system: one is fully tactical and specific (the current PF or 4E systems, whichever floats your boat) and the other is abstract and quick. Now, I am not talking about only "unimportant" or "minion" combats beings quick and "important" combats taking a long time. Rather, a pair of systems where the DM can decide which to use on the fly, at the time of play, depending on the mood of the group, the hour and any other arbitrary needs.

The Balin's Tomb scene in Lord of the Rings comes to mind as a relatively "unimportant" scene that gets the full on treatment,while the "boss fight" scene with the Balrog gets the "short shrift" treatment -- not because of relative importance in the overall "story", but because of what makes an interesting combat encounter versus what doesn't.

I am considering going back to my 3.5 "system" of making most battles very abstract, wirth only a few being worth the full investment. But, the PCs are closing in on 10th level, which means if they don't have to expend resources for 'unimportant" fights, they are entirely too jacked for the "important" ones.

 

[Glyfair]

I think what newer/current editions of D&D need is a two tiered combat system: one is fully tactical and specific (the current PF or 4E systems, whichever floats your boat) and the other is abstract and quick.

I have been thinking this same thing lately. 4E combats are interesting, detailed and everything I want in an interesting combat. However, often I just want a quick and dirty combat.

I really want a combat where you can scale the amount of detail. The only RPG I have seen that does this is Heroquest. They have a quick resolution method and an extended contest method. The catch is that HQ is not tactical. I love the storytelling parts of HQ, but I need more tactics in most of my combats.

 

[LostSoul]

I did this in my hack of 4E.

The rule is that the players decide what combat system they want. They almost always use the hacked one, but I think that's because it favours the PCs.

 

[Mercurius]

I like this idea a lot, but what would you (anyone) propose for a "hack" of 4E? And what sort of time differential are we talking about? For instance, if a "normal" combat lasts about an hour, are we talking 15-20 minutes?

 

[Odhanan]

"Long battles are bad."

Depends.

Some people like combats to be hard and fast, just like they are in real life or in a movie. Somehow, if the combat slows down to a tactical crawl, that destroys these people's immersion in the game world.

Others will love the tactical minutia and consider this a huge part of the fun they have with the game. They want to be able to consider all the problems from the inside out, and/or enjoy gaming the system.

Then, even when you have people who like the long combats, sometimes, they don't want to spend two hours fighting rats, but instead would like to get on with the fun, the BBEG and his cronies just behind the door instead. In other words, there's a question of significance to the overall campaign/adventure that's in play here too: it can be very cool to play a long, several hours combat against *the* dragon of the setting, or at the end of the campaign when the fate of the world rests on the outcome of this major fight.

So really, it's not all black or white, in practice. My advice is to discuss this sort of thing in advance in the get-together session before the game actually starts. What do people want out of the game they're about to create characters for? Do they like long tactical combat, or would they rather spend more time on negotiations, or exploration, or building influence in the game world, or God knows what else?

That's really it: Know Thy Players, and Thyself. Then you'll be able to make meaningful choices as to the campaign's content, and game play, even if that means changing game systems altogether.

 

[The Shaman]

There's a current thread that talks about treating dungeons in 4e as skill challenges; could you do the same with combat?

 

[faith1806]

i agree with u. and in fact or on tv, we can see the result that "Long Combats are Bad".

 

[Baumi]

I totally agree that we need a tiered combat-solution. Long and tactical Combat for the important fights and something quick and cinematic for fillers and un-planned fights.

For that reason I created a "Combat as Skill Challenge" Rule a few months back which adjusts the bonus (Attribute+5 instead of attack) and how to handle encounter/daily resources:

Flanfs RPG Page Regeln/Dn D 4 E-Houserules

 

[buddhafrog]

I would love to hear suggestions. I understand "skill challenge" is the standard reply - and maybe that is correct. But I think that much of a hack is taking it too far. Maybe I'm wrong... Any other suggestions?

 

[LostSoul]

My hack of 4E is based on skill checks. It uses some basic math:

A standard monster can take 2 hits from a character in his level band. An elite twice that, and a solo 5 times that. (Level bands are 1-3/4-6/7-9 etc.) There are some more details based on a chart to determine how much damage PCs do, but as a base it's the same as any other character in that level band. PCs have elite level HP.

It uses simultaneous initiative; everyone declares their actions for the round and then everyone rolls at once. The order actions occur in is based on high roll first, then down the line, init rolls breaking any tie. The modifiers to the die roll are based on your action, and there's a chart for that.

I've been using it for a while and it seems to work. Combats are quicker but that wasn't the only thing I was designing for. It doesn't quite get all the details of regular combat but I'm okay with that.