Long-Term Injury Fun?
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Pseudopsyche
First Post
Then poison has certainly changed in role; my 3.5 DMG lists almost 30 poisons in Table 8-3, only one of which inflicts hp damage. (Even that one also inflicts secondary Con damage.) Honestly, I won't miss the 3rd Edition poisons specifically, but I do hope that 4th Edition can model the lingering impairment that 3rd Edition poisons could inflict. I wouldn't try to inflict such impairment on my players frequently, but it's nice to know how to handle it when it comes up.Imban said:
My own opinion might be summarized in this way:
There is no need for a RULE to adjudicate long-term damage, but there is a need for an EXCEPTION to adjudicate long-term damage.
It is this philosophy that has guided my campaign since about 1983, in any game with truly abstract hit point systems.
Many here are right - in cases where the story has ended, or a long pause is possible, the addition of "long-term damage" makes no sense...I put that in quotes because the damage is "long-term" only with respect to the in-game calendar ('We camp until June'), and has no lasting impact on rolls or activities, and therefore is only a fast-forward step in the adventure. Because of this, any RULE (meaning in my post something that MUST be observed) for long-term damage would lead to a lot of these FF moments.
However, I have often run stories where there is a time pressure - - the villains will open the gates to Hell in three days, the Marquis will marry the maiden at the next full moon, etc.
In those cases, it is no great difficulty to assess long-term (okay, maybe MEDIUM-term) damage impacts. When it would make sense, I typically introduce the possibility of lasting damage under two situations (which may not work in 4E) - - 1) Critical hits doing damage within a point or two of the maximum, delivered by foes who are above the level of rabble (i.e. - a very lucky kobold won't put you out for a month), or 2) dropping to 0 hit points. I am also FAR more likely to do this in the second situation, because #1 can happen through no fault of the player, but #2 is more likely to result when the PC just isn't smart enough to avoid trouble.
The issues are never completely debilitating, but are often large enough to make a dent in their power (penalties of 2 or more to a stat, move penalties, skill/attack penalties, etc.). It can't be too large or you've taken a player out of the game (and since we only play once a month, that's a rotten thing to do even if the player was being stupid). I have also been known to give someone NO penalty, but a 'bleeder' -- a wound that could reopen (normally any time THEY roll a 1 during the duration of the effect, or an opponent rolls a threat) doing a point per round until closed with C*W.
Sorry for the essay...should have just said that I like these things when they are part of the storyline, but not as something that always occurs when XX happens.
Also...my old brain remembers one of the books (1st Ed DMG????) having a game description where someone takes an arrow in the leg and loses Dex...but I could be wrong.
There is no need for a RULE to adjudicate long-term damage, but there is a need for an EXCEPTION to adjudicate long-term damage.
It is this philosophy that has guided my campaign since about 1983, in any game with truly abstract hit point systems.
Many here are right - in cases where the story has ended, or a long pause is possible, the addition of "long-term damage" makes no sense...I put that in quotes because the damage is "long-term" only with respect to the in-game calendar ('We camp until June'), and has no lasting impact on rolls or activities, and therefore is only a fast-forward step in the adventure. Because of this, any RULE (meaning in my post something that MUST be observed) for long-term damage would lead to a lot of these FF moments.
However, I have often run stories where there is a time pressure - - the villains will open the gates to Hell in three days, the Marquis will marry the maiden at the next full moon, etc.
In those cases, it is no great difficulty to assess long-term (okay, maybe MEDIUM-term) damage impacts. When it would make sense, I typically introduce the possibility of lasting damage under two situations (which may not work in 4E) - - 1) Critical hits doing damage within a point or two of the maximum, delivered by foes who are above the level of rabble (i.e. - a very lucky kobold won't put you out for a month), or 2) dropping to 0 hit points. I am also FAR more likely to do this in the second situation, because #1 can happen through no fault of the player, but #2 is more likely to result when the PC just isn't smart enough to avoid trouble.
The issues are never completely debilitating, but are often large enough to make a dent in their power (penalties of 2 or more to a stat, move penalties, skill/attack penalties, etc.). It can't be too large or you've taken a player out of the game (and since we only play once a month, that's a rotten thing to do even if the player was being stupid). I have also been known to give someone NO penalty, but a 'bleeder' -- a wound that could reopen (normally any time THEY roll a 1 during the duration of the effect, or an opponent rolls a threat) doing a point per round until closed with C*W.
Sorry for the essay...should have just said that I like these things when they are part of the storyline, but not as something that always occurs when XX happens.
Also...my old brain remembers one of the books (1st Ed DMG????) having a game description where someone takes an arrow in the leg and loses Dex...but I could be wrong.
Celebrim
Legend
Is defeat fun? I mean really, is defeat fun for anyone? DM's don't enjoy it. Players don't enjoy it. So why do we even have the possibility of defeat?
The specific details of our 'long term injury' mechanic don't really matter. Nor do we really need to define the exact duration of 'long term' other than it implies more than one rest period without aid.
The game benefits from 'long term injury' mechanics because they are a form of concrete defeat which is less permenent (or more precisely less expensive) than death.
It should of course be noted that permenent maiming or gimping which cannot be recovered from is probably equivalent to death, and that this should be taken into account when designing such a mechanic.
I never realized that there was an assumed time-scale imposed on you by D&D. I've known of D&D campaigns that had so many game years, you could watch the character's children grow up.
PS: The more I read about 4E, the more Greg Costikyan's Toon game seems ahead of its time. I think they should have killed the 'Character's can die' sacred cow.
The specific details of our 'long term injury' mechanic don't really matter. Nor do we really need to define the exact duration of 'long term' other than it implies more than one rest period without aid.
The game benefits from 'long term injury' mechanics because they are a form of concrete defeat which is less permenent (or more precisely less expensive) than death.
It should of course be noted that permenent maiming or gimping which cannot be recovered from is probably equivalent to death, and that this should be taken into account when designing such a mechanic.
I never realized that there was an assumed time-scale imposed on you by D&D. I've known of D&D campaigns that had so many game years, you could watch the character's children grow up.
PS: The more I read about 4E, the more Greg Costikyan's Toon game seems ahead of its time. I think they should have killed the 'Character's can die' sacred cow.
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I once had a character who lost an arm during the game. But it was a decision made by both me and the dm, as I wanted to try it for roleplaying purposes. I played several sessions with the one arm, taking various penalties for the loss. I eventually received the magics to regenerate the arm, and went on from there.
It was a lot of fun, but I think that's mainly due to the fact that it wasn't just random, we did it as part of the story. But would I want the possibility on every character I play? Most certainly not.
The thing is, the second you throw in long term injury effects into the game, IT WILL HAPPEN. And many people don't want to play lame (literally) characters. They want to play heroes and such. If heroes get grievous wounds, they get a montage, not a two week bedrest session.
To me, I think longterm injury should be handled just as my dm and I did. An agreement between player and dm to enhance the story, not some unexpected screw to a character.
For example, let's say your character gets captured and is being tortured. The DM pulls you away for a moment and asks, "Hey I was thinking about having the guy doing some permanent injury to you. It will get healed eventually, but you'll take these X penalties for a while. But it will be a great rp oppurtunity for you. Would you like to try it?" And then allow the player to try it. I think most dms would be impressed how many players would be willing to take on that challenge if asked politely.
It was a lot of fun, but I think that's mainly due to the fact that it wasn't just random, we did it as part of the story. But would I want the possibility on every character I play? Most certainly not.
The thing is, the second you throw in long term injury effects into the game, IT WILL HAPPEN. And many people don't want to play lame (literally) characters. They want to play heroes and such. If heroes get grievous wounds, they get a montage, not a two week bedrest session.
To me, I think longterm injury should be handled just as my dm and I did. An agreement between player and dm to enhance the story, not some unexpected screw to a character.
For example, let's say your character gets captured and is being tortured. The DM pulls you away for a moment and asks, "Hey I was thinking about having the guy doing some permanent injury to you. It will get healed eventually, but you'll take these X penalties for a while. But it will be a great rp oppurtunity for you. Would you like to try it?" And then allow the player to try it. I think most dms would be impressed how many players would be willing to take on that challenge if asked politely.
Long Term injuries work well in some games and not in others. D&D and lasting injury doesn't go well.
What I will miss is attrition. Some of the best games of D&D I've played in involved situations in which the PCs were never able to get up to full spells and hps and had to struggle through regardless. 4th's approach means each encounter is like the first.
What I will miss is attrition. Some of the best games of D&D I've played in involved situations in which the PCs were never able to get up to full spells and hps and had to struggle through regardless. 4th's approach means each encounter is like the first.
keterys
First Post
My suggestion for long term injuries:
1) Define one or more criteria for taking a long term injury, such as the following: falling to 0 hp, becoming bloodied, being critically hit
2) Define a number of extended rests required to remove a single long term injury (for example 1 for one day, 7 for a week)
For every long term injury taken, reduce the number of healing surges you get back at your next long term rest. Remove long term injuries at the appropriate rate.
Example: 'When bought to 0 and when critically hit' '1 day'
Kashra the Dwarf Fighter has 13 healing surges. During a tense adventuring day she is brought to 0 once and criticall hit twice. She takes 3 long term injuries. When she rests for the night, she awakens with 10 healing surges and 2 long term injuries remaining.
After another adventuring day she racks up another 3 long term injuries, bringing her total to 5. She rests for the night and is at 8 healing surges and 4 long term injuries. She lets the party know that she'll really want a week off in town soon.
1) Define one or more criteria for taking a long term injury, such as the following: falling to 0 hp, becoming bloodied, being critically hit
2) Define a number of extended rests required to remove a single long term injury (for example 1 for one day, 7 for a week)
For every long term injury taken, reduce the number of healing surges you get back at your next long term rest. Remove long term injuries at the appropriate rate.
Example: 'When bought to 0 and when critically hit' '1 day'
Kashra the Dwarf Fighter has 13 healing surges. During a tense adventuring day she is brought to 0 once and criticall hit twice. She takes 3 long term injuries. When she rests for the night, she awakens with 10 healing surges and 2 long term injuries remaining.
After another adventuring day she racks up another 3 long term injuries, bringing her total to 5. She rests for the night and is at 8 healing surges and 4 long term injuries. She lets the party know that she'll really want a week off in town soon.
Spinachcat
First Post
Warhammer and Dark Heresy have long term injury issues BUT they are not high fantasy games like D&D. High fantasy does not mix with long term injury.
It is not uncommon to have a Warhammer hero with a peg leg, one eye and hook after many adventures. That's not the D&D way. It doesn't mesh with a game where heroes can taken dozens of sword blows, falls of cliffs and toss around raise deads. And that's okay!
If you want gritty, go play Warhammer or Dark Heresy. They are really terrific RPGs and the playstyle is quite different from D&D. I sense a lot of people want D&D to do everything and it can't. Go try out some other RPGs and see what they do. No game can do everything. D&D excels at high fantasy, not so much for gritty.
I disagree...somewhat. After several encounters, they will be low on healing surges and daily powers and only have encounter and at-will abilities. Also, we see that many magic items have daily powers and I will bet that struggling through will still occur. However, probably less struggling than OD&D when it got dicey when you were stuck in the dungeon with the spellcasters tapped and trying to find a way out.
It is not uncommon to have a Warhammer hero with a peg leg, one eye and hook after many adventures. That's not the D&D way. It doesn't mesh with a game where heroes can taken dozens of sword blows, falls of cliffs and toss around raise deads. And that's okay!
If you want gritty, go play Warhammer or Dark Heresy. They are really terrific RPGs and the playstyle is quite different from D&D. I sense a lot of people want D&D to do everything and it can't. Go try out some other RPGs and see what they do. No game can do everything. D&D excels at high fantasy, not so much for gritty.
Mr Jack said:
I disagree...somewhat. After several encounters, they will be low on healing surges and daily powers and only have encounter and at-will abilities. Also, we see that many magic items have daily powers and I will bet that struggling through will still occur. However, probably less struggling than OD&D when it got dicey when you were stuck in the dungeon with the spellcasters tapped and trying to find a way out.
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JohnSnow
Hero
For those so inclined, there were some variant long-term injury systems introduced in various supplements for 3e. Usually, these "supplements" were tied to "grittier" worlds than standard D&D, like Green Ronin's excellent Black Company and Thieves' World setting books.
Any of those systems for long term injury is pretty easily ported to Fourth Edition. I'd tag them either to dropping to negative hit points, massive damage from a single attack, or (less inclined) to Critical Hits.
Appropriate tables exist, at least, in the two books I mentioned above. But I bet Wulf or Rob Schwalb (for example) could both whip up a pretty good "Grim and Gritty" system for long-term injuries specifically designed for 4E.
Unless of course, Mike Mearls is ahead of us all and managed to stick it into the DMG as a variant.
Any of those systems for long term injury is pretty easily ported to Fourth Edition. I'd tag them either to dropping to negative hit points, massive damage from a single attack, or (less inclined) to Critical Hits.
Appropriate tables exist, at least, in the two books I mentioned above. But I bet Wulf or Rob Schwalb (for example) could both whip up a pretty good "Grim and Gritty" system for long-term injuries specifically designed for 4E.
Unless of course, Mike Mearls is ahead of us all and managed to stick it into the DMG as a variant.
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